Saturday, September 15, 2012

Trans Privilege

It's with no small chagrin as a female to hear the commentary coming from the trans-community about how every man who ever put on a dress has become a "trans-women" and so fallen victim to one of their latest creations, "trans-misogyny!" Because at it's heart  even the very concept of this  new beast, the "trans-misogyny" has to be the penultimate and yet quite ironic expression of what misogyny really means. Or as seen to the women of the world? Men simply going about exercising their Male Privilege!

Male Privilege?

Oh no! Not us! Never! We don't have any stinking Male Privilege! Oh really? Me thinks that by saying that it becomes case in point... How else do you explain that when even the idea of Male Privilege and it's inappropriateness to being female is brought to the TG table. Rather than saying "Obviously so, and a nasty bit of business that Male Privilege is and a bloody hell to try and get rid of, but get rid of it we must!"  Male Privilege is immediately discounted as in no way applying to them! No no NO! These recently men NEVER experienced any sort of Male Privilege! O-h n-o! Why, just look at our history! We were always the ones picked on and we were called names! We were odd ducks and never the captains of the football league, We never dated the cheerleaders! Not us nope not us! We were never given that access to the golden escalator of quick success that the "privileged men had! No no no! Can't you silly women see how wrong you are to say something so hurtful to us? We never had any of that Male Privilege business you are prattling on about what-so-ever! Clearly you're full of beans and more to for you to say something as outrageous as our having had any sort of... "Male Privilege!"

So why would your saying that make this a case in point? Because it is clearly evident by your action and your words that when you hear the term Male Privilege, as all males do, you assume, because of your inculcated  blindness to Male Privilege as part of you very being, that any sort of "Male Privilege" MUST mean that greater privilege exercised by the alpha males you are not! So clearly the females must be wrong as they always are! Male Privilege could not possibly apply to you!

Not so my little ones! Not so at all!

Male Privilege, in the circular nature of many social concepts, both the end product of misogyny, and the root of it! Misogyny here being plain and simple, the blanket acceptance by society and it's rule of thumb, that women are and always will be of lesser value than men.

So where does something this odious begin? How does it happen?  Simple, the granting of Male Privilege starts at the moment of a birth... When the Good Doctor says... It's a boy! A great sigh of relief is had by one and all! Ahhh it's not the birth of a girl but the blessed birth of a son! The father is to be congratulated for his superior performance in ejaculations and the mother will be adored before getting to work for what she has brought forth from her male blessed body!  Yes! Another male has taken breath and with that, the world is just a little brighter!

From day one, even down to the choice of blanket colors, the treatment of this male will be quite different than the treatment of any female... He is going to be given huge amounts of leeway to explore his world. A freedom she will never know. He will be rewarded again and again for his being bold and curious! Not so with the female child... while she will be as loved as he, she will be reigned in, in by that love! Her world is to be one that will be confined and it will be defined by the fact that one day she will, God willing, be impregnated by a man so she can produce more males! From day one, with that "inevitability" in mind, even if it is unconsciously done. First from her mother and then from every other female she interacts with, and till the day she dies, if she in anyway acts as a male does she will hear quickly and clearly "No no no Sweetie! Good girls don't do that!" Oh sure! She will be allowed to explore her world... but with clear limits on both the world and what she can explore! She will be praised for her being curious...but with clear limits to how curious and about what! She will be loved and she will and cherished, just as the male child, but unlike him, she will be watched and monitored in everything she does! His freedom to be and do as he wishes is something she will never know! Her every move, unlike his is going to be judged, weighted and evaluated as she is in the process of being groomed to become what she will...the valued possession of a male, the bearer of his children!

Think me daft? I dare you to wrap any baby all in pink, do so and I guarantee  the comments will be about how pretty "she is!" Wrap the same baby in blue and the comments will switch completely to how smart or strong or handsome he is! Male Privilege is that deeply woven into the fabric of our lives because a females value is and it seems always will be first and foremost placed upon her being attractive to males! She as the female and the one who is to be inseminated by them and as the one who will bear his children. She MUST be pretty to his eye so she can attract only the best males to produce more of them. Pretty being a value which while it rules her life does not hurt any male of the species, but unlike her's is far from a necessity to his continuity!

From day one, the male child will be taught over and over and over that he as a male is the center of the universe... that all things in this world revolve round him... That he is to be the lord and master of earth and sky and all between and he is to be given dominion over all he sees as is God's (a male) Plan! And he will take this knowledge into his being and he will make it so!  His very thinking about himself and his world, added by the handy dandy compartmentalization of the male mind that testosterone adds, will easily accept this information as being the natural state of all things and the lens throuh which the world is seen! This natural law that men are on top women are on the bottom clearly becomes the way things were intended and there is no need of any further discussion about it! Got it?... Meanwhile, the inverse of that is happening to the female... She is being gently but persistently taught she is a lesser human, that she must compliment the males, she must cheer them on and she must take care of them, she must adore them as her better and she must always place their needs above her's. Always! She is in the process of being groomed to become a males helpmeat and much as we would like to deny it, but it is what it is, to become his chattel.  Man is the owner... Woman is the possession!

Enter the TG... men who are wanting for many reasons, in some measure to "be" contrary to what is expected of them as men, to be somewhat feminine! Quite the leap isn't it? From dominator to dominated? From master of the universe to his possession? Particularly when the one doing the jump has supped soooo long and sooooo deeply from the cup of his rightful Male Privilege? So does the TG in transit headed to womanhood set about undoing a lifetime of his ill gotten privilege as he sets about removing body parts which are male so he can be womanly and in the end female like all the others?" Are you fucking kidding me or what? Let go of all that goodness and pleasure? Oh NO! Wait, that's not just a big NO but a HELL NO! Hey! I know! We're born men right? Lets just keep right on doing as we have done our entire lives! We know how to do get things done without even thinking about it! So when we are faced with pesky realities we don't like, well we just change em to suit our needs! Is woman problematic? Then simply do what you have done all your life and redefine what's "a woman" to suit your needs! And if that means you are a "trans-woman" but still have that little penis and naturally, you love that little sucker? Well no worries! No Sirre Bob! Women can have a penis if they want to right? No? Really they can't? No? They don't? Well by God they sure as hell do when A MAN and a master of his world says they do! As for any of this nonsense of getting treated like women do by other men, other than the niceties that feed the fantasy? Oh NO way in hell...Not on YOUR watch you ain't Bub! Why YOU ran this place for umteen thousand years and YOU know how things work round here and  while YOU may let some guy hold the door for YOU and say Ma'am cause it's fun. There is no way, no how, any man ever going to one up YOU!

 On and on it goes... from the most basic in manspaling by the muddling the topic with "Gender Expression" rather than the easy to define sex, to creating all sorts of hierarchies of "trans" and then as men do to prove their prowess, by besting these hierarchies ! To their revamping the scale women are measured against, so that "trans-women" like YOU, get the get that all important get out of jail free "man card" when you play at being female, and of course it goes without saying that unlike the three and a half billion born female. NO WAY are  YOU going to be judged on YOUR looks.... Course that may not have been an issue if you rated about a 0.02 on a scale of one to ten... ok that was a gimme... if you would ALLOW yourself with your Male Privilege to be rated, but you won't, it would be far lower... But never mind, you as a rightful holder of Male Privilege, there is no way, no how is that ever going to happen to YOU! You are never going to be at the bottom of any stinking scale remotely related to... Shudder... females, like their looks!! (despite your having judged women by that same scale for sixty some years)

You, born a male are going to be sure to exercise your Male Privilege to it's full extent as is your God Given Right!... So clearly you don't want to be taken as female so you are going to be out and proud and clearly, a man in a dress! Oppise! I mean a trans-woman in a dress to be reckoned with! And in the process of you redefining the world to suit you and in your  removing all these nasty trans-phobic barriers in your way? You are going to be damn sure about educating the world (your word not mine) that despite your many pretty if muddy words to the contrary about your gender this and your trans-that, that no matter if you look somewhat female, you my Dear, along with everyone else in this continuum who might have been born a male but who "transitioned" is despite any choice in dress and any surgeries and any successful ruse to the contrary... is still a man!

Way to go dudes!
MKIA

101 comments:

  1. I have to admit you make a good series of points here.

    There is indeed no way that I personally am going to adopt a submissive second-class role in social situations, except where overriding local custom demands it - in other words to pass without bother.

    I've been thinking that I was conforming to notions of what a modern woman should think and do. But yes, I can see that quite possibly I was in fact reluctant to give up male ways of viewing things. I certainly do not have that air of a woman who has accepted a narrow life devoted to home and family, or one cowed into submission by masterful men who insist on supremacy. I'm confident and independent: unusual traits for a woman, but bog-standard for a man. What a giveaway.

    A good post.

    Lucy

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  2. Thank you for this, it needed to be said and I am glad you said it.

    Disrobing from male privilege is one of the hardest walks to walk. Laying down entitlements which most don't even know they enjoy on a daily basis, and trampling like a herd of trans-women into a space believing it their right to occupy.

    Women of history experience the struggle of avoiding the dead give-away. The constant self inspection not only in the mirror but also in weighing every word, gesture and approach, forbidding any uncontrolled relaxation into the "good old days".

    It is the hardest road to travel requiring most vigilance.

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  3. Ah, the argument for pretending that life before transition didn't happen so that you can pretend that you've never known what it was to be a man. And then you fade into the background and then what?

    I'm not quite sure what the point is because the fact is that living as a woman, even an out of the closet trans woman, does not grant one male privilege. And perhaps if one has not gone as far as SRS, one can still go running back to the boy's club, but it never quite works, does it?

    So how does being an out trans woman confer male privilege? Do you think the male bosses still treat this woman as one of the guys? Do you think she gets the same respect from men in communities where women are most definitely second class?

    Where does this male privilege reside? In her head? Does she think because she has a life she does not wish to toss in the dumpster that she can still exercise male privilege in some fashion simply by saying that there was a part of her life, lived as a male, that was of value? How does she exercise her male privilege?

    I'd like to know because it would be lovely if it were true, to have the best of both worlds, to be a woman respected and treated as a man by men. Because that is what male privilege is, to have, by basis of perception, the rights and privileges of men. Women, trans or no, do not get this, even if they would like it. Isn't equality something to be desired? When you've given it up, wouldn't it be nice to desire it, as most women, trans or no, desire it?

    MKIA, wouldn't you prefer a world where you could be judged not by your gender, but by the quality of your excellent mind and the skills you possess? It doesn't exist for women, trans or no. You know it. I know it. Calling a trans woman a man doesn't make it so because experience of the reality of the world from both sides tells us what is actual, that you may see some as men in dresses playing at girl, but most of the world doesn't agree with you. At best, they see them as women. At worst, they see them as freaks. They just about never see them as men deserving of the privilege of being men.

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  4. Umm... Wow... If you don't mind, I'd like to say a couple of things.

    Let me start off by stating that I am a trans woman, so this is gong to be coming from specific point of view.

    Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to go on record as saying, "Yes, male privilege does exist". It's true. Male privilege does exist and it is a horrible thing. Sure, some people claim they have never had it since they were constantly teased and picked on, but they did have it. They just didn't realize it because they just compared themselves to the men around them. Any trans woman who has been transitioning for long enough should start to realize the difference.

    Also, many trans women (especially those just starting to transition or who are going to begin transitioning) do have a very skewed view on sex and gender roles. This is primarily due to the fact that they haven't figured out who they are yet. Once this phase passes, they usually become more bearable.

    However, there were one or two points that you made that I'm afraid I must disagree with.

    Trans women who have "come out" so to speak,are almost always looked down upon in most of the world. In the US, there are only 16 states that ban discrimination against trans people. That means in most states if you come out as trans, you can and will be fired from your job with no compensation. There are countless instances where a trans individual came out and lost their job as a result.

    In fact, according to the "National Transgender Discrimination Survey", which is by the National Center for Transgender Equality and the Natonal Gay and Lesbian Task Force from November 2009, twenty-six percent of those surveyed lost their jobs because they are transgendered. The unemployment rate was nearly twice the national survey at the time of the survey. Forty-seven percent experienced adverse job actions because of their transgender status (E.G. Denied a job or a deserved promotion). Ninety-seven percent we mistreated at work because of their transgender status. But wait, t gets better. Twenty-seven percent make less than $20,000 a year, and fifteen percent make less than $10,000 a year with the national average of making less than $10,000 as only being seven percent. This doesn't fit in too well with the idea of "Trans Privilege", but I shall continue.

    Next, outside of those states which have the anti-discrimination laws, it is NOT a hate crime to kill a trans person in a most horrific manner while spewing trans phobic vitriol. And yes, this does happen. I won't spew out the "one in twelve being murdered" statistic sine no one really knows where it originated. However, combined with the fact that roughly half of all transsexuals that do not get treatment by the age of twenty will attempt suicide and the fact that many cannot afford to get medication legally, the estimates have shown that we suffer from a sixty percent mortality rate. All this combined isn't looking like a privilege so far.

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  5. Part two:

    Finally, I shall discuss the origin of trans people. Being a transsexual isn't something you can choose or wake up and decide to be. It's kind of like how no one can change their sexual orientation. A transsexual has always noticed that there was something wrong with them. In your post, you implied that male born children can do what they want without criticism, and I can attest flat out, that you have made an incorrect assertion there. As a child the majority of trans children are pushed toward their stereotyped gender toys. Many receive scathing rebukes for deviating from their forced gender roles. This is the reason that trans people have such a staggering suicide rate.

    Additionally, there have been studies showing that a transsexual's brain is actually wired differently from their birth sex's norm and, in fact, more closely resembles the opposite sex's. There is no way to "cure" or "treat" a transsexual and the listing in the DSM (the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) states that the only way to treat a transsexual is to have them transition. Transitioning also has the happy benefit of almost eliminating the chance of suicide among transsexuals.

    So, in conclusion, yes, male privilege does exist. However, trans women generally (there are exceptions to every rule) forfeit their privilege. So, give a girl a break and go easy on trans women in the future.

    Also, if you think the fact that trans women used to get male privilege is bad, what do you think o trans men? Just something to chew on...

    -Verthandi

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  6. I must congratulate Miz-Know It-All and the administratorsfor doing an excellent job of bringing all the trans-experts out of the woodwork.

    Why these fine fellows...err trans-women know all about just how hard and difficult it must be to be trans-this and trans-that. I must agree. It must be terrible to be let go from your job just because you are causing a disruption at work and frightening the customer base.

    I guess what i a having trouble understanding is why women must endure all those things that goes along wih being women, while trans-women do not. You know, little things, like not having special laws to protect us at work when the boss doesn't think we are acting sufficiently "lady-like" as in obseqiuious/subservient/sexy, or however else the boss decides is "lady-like".

    I guess what I see is a bunch of guys, (Damn it! Sorry!), trans-women, complaining because, Gee Golly Whiz!!!...We're being treated like women!

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  7. ...As in ugly women.

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  8. Gee Anonymous! That sounds so nice that you are willing to claim that we are being treated like "ugly women". It must be rough what with having any marriage you enter into being treated as a joke and in most cases, annulled by the government without your permission. It must also be rough having the government deny you the right to even see any of your children from the now annulled marriage.

    Shall I go on?

    We're not saying that women don't have it tough. If anything, we are walking, talking proof of sexual and gender discrimination. We just don't like being treated like crap from everyone we meet. If we had the same basic rights as women, we'd be happy. Because right now, we're not even treated as people in most places.

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  9. Sure. Please do. Like are yu for real or just high?

    "It must be rough what with having any marriage you enter into being treated as a joke and in most cases, annulled by the government without your permission. It must also be rough having the government deny you the right to even see any of your children from the now annulled marriage."

    I guess this must be the norm, (according to all your facts and figures), and happening all the time everywhere, but only to you special snowflake types, of course.

    Or is this just what happened to you?

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  10. While I read these comments, I'm watching "Dinner for Shmucks" and seeing so many similarities that it's frightening.

    That especially goes for Verthandi, whose comment "Finally, I shall discuss..." made me laugh so hard I nearly wet myself.

    I really must thank Tranny Central for sending me here!

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  11. Prior to my transition, I had always been one at work to just do enough. No more, no less. Underperformer, but I got away with it for two reasons: 1. Because I am very smart. 2. Because I had a penis. I suspect that a woman with a similar work history would not enjoy the salary that I'm enjoying today. So, although there are other areas in my life where I've lost privilege due to my transition, most notably with respect to my kids, I still benefit from "male privilege," and I am not afraid to admit that.

    Who knows what other benefits were conferred on my in the first 30-some-odd years of my life due to the fact that I had a penis? It's likely that over time I'll regress to the mean, but whatever they are, they're out there, and to insist that they all somehow just disappear because one transitions is a little disingenuous.

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  12. *Sigh* Okay. You want to make this difficult, but I'll humor you anyway.

    As for marriages being annulled, the following are just a few of the more high profile ones:
    Littleton v. Prange
    Estate of Gardiner
    Case of Nikki Araguz
    Nash 2003WL23097095

    Additionally, if you are married before transitioning, your doctor will usually encourage you to get a divorce first. Hell, until recently, they would tell the trans people that it was required when it wasn't. Also, if a trans person happens to enjoy the company of the sex they are transitioning towards, you cannot get married once you have transitioned.

    Oh yeah... In addition to that, the countries of Britain, Australia, Ireland, and a few others force you to get a divorce before you transition. Really progressive there, right?

    In relation to the custody cases that happened after a divorce, a couple of the more prominent ones are as follows:
    J.L.S. v. D.K.S.
    Cisek v. Cisek
    Daly v. Daley
    Christian v. Randall (until the appellate court)
    Kantaras v. Kantaras (when it was appealed, it stripped the status)

    Custody issues are less common in modern times, but they do still occasionally pop up.

    Another fun fact is when the Matter of the Estate of Gardiner (mentioned above) was settled, the Kansas supreme court stated, "The words 'sex,' 'male,' and 'female' in everyday understanding do not encompass transsexuals." "The plain, ordinary meaning of 'persons of the opposite sex,'" they continued, "contemplates a biological man and a biological woman and not [transsexuals]." This happy little quote basically says that in Kansas, I'm neither a man nor a woman. Seeing as how most laws in Kansas state man or woman, you can understand how this might be dangerous in the wrong hands. ;)

    I'll try to refrain from mentioning jobs and workplace environment since I mentioned in the huge post above your first one.

    Instead, why don't I invite you to come on over to Texas and beat me to death while screaming trans phobic remarks? It's not like you'd get much of a sentence for it. It wasn't until recently that someone did just that and was found guilty of first degree murder. Hell, you might even get the same treatment as William C. Palmer, who strangled Chanelle Pickett to death. He got off on assault and battery by claiming the "trans panic" defense; Never mind the fact that numerous people testified that he knew she was a transsexual or the fact that he was known for going to gay bars and picking up transsexuals.

    I believe the most common conviction is manslaughter in most cases. It's also not a hate crime in most states. For the life of me though, I can't think of a single state where killing a natal born woman while insulting them isn't a hate crime. Much less a state where I could get a shortened sentence or off all together by claiming that I was surprised she was a woman.

    Then there's also the fact that almost twenty percent of transsexuals being homeless purely based on their gender identity (from the same discrimination survey as mentioned above)

    And wrapping it all up, only forty percent of employed trans people are offered health insurance with their jobs as opposed to the sixty-two percent national average.

    So, yeah, I'm "for real".

    Anonymous, I know you're going to mock me further despite everything I have posted, but I'd like you to consider the fact that these are all real people trying to get by. Honestly, I would not wish being transsexual on anyone.

    Fionnuala, you must have lived one hell of a charmed life for a trans woman. I honestly envy you.

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  13. I dunno. I spent $70,000 on a custody trial to be able to stay in my kids' lives. Which I won. I was banned from my son's preschool when I transitioned. Although I managed to go in and reason out a compromise with the head of the school.

    To be certain, there are many transsexual women who wouldn't have had the resources to mount a defense at said trial. So in the big scheme of things, no, I didn't have it all that bad, comparatively speaking.

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  14. Starting at the beginning which as Dorthy said; "is always a good place to start!"

    Lucy,
    You made a slightly negative reference to women who "had accepted a narrow life devoted to home and family, or one cowed into submission by masterful men who insist on supremacy."

    This is yet again a pretty typical mindset created by living with Male Privilege... That there is a hierarchy of "submissiveness" in women... Might I point out that even Margret Thatcher, one of the toughest women ever born, had to be coached in how to loose the instilled from her mother's knee feminine/submissive indoctrination, but at the same time how to hold herself in check lest she be getting "too masculine"

    When men have to do that... or when women DON'T then Male Privilege will have gone the way of the dinosaur... till then it is something that any born transsexual will spend a lifetime rooting out!

    Kathryn
    Thank you, it's a pleasure to be heard clearly.

    Miss Esnaught,
    I read your blog and believe it or not, I do understand your struggles, and I wish you well in finding your way, but I would like to point out that you may want to consider in that journey how you too have exhibited one of the Primary characteristics of Male Privileged thinking in your response, and why this is so hard to root out... but so necessary. That being, you did as men are taught to do, you ignored the content of what a woman said and made the discussion all about you... Go back and read what I said, there was NOTHING in what I said about being out or other wise... nada...

    And yes, it would be nice to live in a world where I am not judged on my sex (gender really makes no sense here like it doesn't most places) but that is not going to happen in my life time if ever... Women are lesser in our world and they are judged by a totally different scale than men and there is no way you are going to even begin to change that until you know to your bones that as a woman who never had the privilege rather than the indignity of a man who has lost his...

    Verthandi
    Both the same as what I said to Miss Enaught with one other tidbit... Simply by adding "Trans" to woman, rather than simply referring to yourself as a woman you are insuring you too get to keep the what I would call your, "Get Out of Jail Free Card." Why? Women do not have qualifiers! It doesn't matter if she is old young fat think tall short, ugly or gorgeous... she is still a woman. Period! By adding Trans, you tag on that you ... Verthandi, ahem "use to be male" which means that you get to keep a HUGE chunk of Male Privilege... As in not getting judged as a woman, but as a man in a dress... All the faux pas, forgiven, the not looking your best, forgiven, the desire to be center stage, forgiven, on and on it goes...all forgiven because if you are a "trans-woman" then you get the "Oh he is trying so hard and he almost gets it, poor dear," rather than "what a bitch!" or "she looks like hell!" or "do you believe the nerve of her?"

    So it's up to you, but as long as you hold onto your "trans-identity" you can never be a woman... this is not being mean... just honest.

    Fionnuala
    You got it girl! Just the knowing how now you are going to have to work twice as hard as a man for half the recognition means you are well on your way to a successful life as just another woman... all my best in your journey!


    MKIA

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  15. Verthandi

    This is quite off topic... which is par for the course in dealing with the topic of Male Privilege (redirecting is so darn masculine in thought because, YOU get to control the conversation when it goes to a place you do not like!)

    Anyway...

    Your argument is full of beans! Littleton VS Prange was settled as it was because she was not seen by the courts as being female!

    Then you turn right around and make the same argument in reverse by pointing out that we can never be female by pointing to countries where you have to divorce, not to transition as you put it. But to get legal recognition as a female...

    Listen to what you just said! This is PURE Male Privilege speaking!

    You and every other "trans-woman" out there asking, not to be treated as a woman rather you are asking for extra special treatment not available to anyone born female

    Insuring by the doing that there will be many many more verdicts such as Littleton!

    Look it is either or proposition!... deal with it! If you are going to live as a woman then live as a woman does and accept that it comes with woman's lot in life... if not then live as a man...

    Sucks Huh?
    MKIA

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  16. There's a lot of truth in there, somewhere. Most of the T-Girls I know would never, ever be submissive to a male, socially.

    But where does that leave me? I enjoy being submissive to males - I like them to tell me what to do, what to wear, I like to cook and clean and wait on them hand and foot. I wear my hair for them - I dress for them. My happiness with my self is so dependent on their happiness with me.

    The problem has only been in finding a male WORTHY of such adoration. Since most men these days are such immature children.

    And my friends who are female, confide in me, that they are looking for the same thing - a male they feel worthy of obeying and "placing his needs above theirs." And they tell me they haven't married because they can't find a man they would be willing to take such a backseat to...

    And they seem even more ashamed of themselves than I do that they have a desire that is so contrary to what a "modern woman" is supposed to be. Or they are angry - angry at the feminists for stirring up such a muck and forcing them to try to live their lives in a way that they don't feel is right - trying to be equals to men.

    So there is something natural in a woman having such feelings. Women it seems want to be dominated by men to a certain degree. And the wives I know who have divorced their husbands tell me it was mostly because they didn't "respect" him anymore, because he let them walk all over him too much. He wasn't enough of a "man."

    I don't know what I am trying to say. . . but I do know I am not liked by many T-Girls I know, and a few post-op transsexuals because I have pointed out this difference between them and me, and a few others like me, and women.

    Then again maybe I missed your point, like I usually do.

    Camels & Cocktails,

    Jamie

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  17. MKIA:

    I debated not even replying, but you deserve an honest response.

    First, the use of trans woman is not anymore of a qualifier than tall woman or short woman as opposed to trans-woman which is a separation. By using a space rather than a hyphen, I was attempting to use trans as an adjective as opposed to a qualifier. I'm sorry that it came across like that, and you are correct that if I were to refer to myself publicly as a "trans-woman", I would be separating myself. Personally, I just refer to myself as a woman in public and I do tend to avoid the adjective of trans for several reasons.

    As far as my argument with Anonymous goes, I admit that it got a bit muddled. I apologize for that since I should have slept before attempting to make mmy point. I was more trying to point out certain restrictions that are mandated by the government. This points out a certain duplicity where we exist in a grey marginalized area by the government, and we are accepted as neither male nor female.

    As far as male privilege goes, I agree it exists and maybe some trans people do get to benefit from it, but whatever grouping or amount that do benefit are grossly outweighed by the injustices levied against us.

    I'm not saying or implying that natal born women don't suffer. I know they do. What I am trying to state is that we suffer as well. It's not some high lofty place where we can look down on others and laugh. We are treated like filth in many cases where we have been "outed". If we haven't been "outed", then we are treated as women, which is usually a LOT better than we'd be treated otherwise.

    I don't mean to sound disrespectful here, but have you noticed how all of your arguments seem to put trans people in a corner of acting in ways of stereotypical gender roles. And then stating that since we don't act a certain way, then we are not that gender. Doesn't that sound a bit... I don't want to say sexist, but it does sound like it comes close.

    Maybe it's the fact that I've had strong female figures throughout my life, maybe it's because I have strong feelings about the topic and hate being attacked constantly, or maybe I just like to hear myself talk. No matter how you want to go about it, I'm one woman that refuses to conform to anyone else's standards.

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  18. First, a quick reply on the the usage of "trans-woman" I was the one who coined the term "woman of history," and I did it more than a decade back after a long conversation similar to this one, simply because the usage of ANY modifier placed before the term woman in regards a history that included a time in which that was not the case, makes the whole into a negation

    The distinction between the two may be slight but it is still a VERY important difference!

    It's akin to asking a kid what they want to "be" when they grow up vs what they want to "do!" Carried through a lifetime the former child will come to place their identity, as far too many do, into whatever act they perform to keep body and soul together. The second will find by being uncoupled from that concept, a much greater freedom to explore their world because they know they are who they are and not what they do... Subtle, yes, but very real differences...

    So no... I'm not buying that trans-woman is the same as fat woman or thin-woman as in neither of those is there any implication that the person was not always female...


    Second point... Yes, I DO hold a hard and cold line vis-a-vie transsexual "success" Look, I am not a mean person, but I am a realist and this is not a game... Once you set foot to this path it is a real life and death struggle in a hard and unforgiving world and I can count on both my hands with fingers left over the ones I know who made it... So if one is not prepared to go the distance no matter what the cost or how much work, then they are assured sooner or later of running face first into that cold hard reality! Which is why you are asking for these "rptections? Hey, in this world, like it or not, you either succeed in your transition or you do not... and no amount of laws passed nor "trans-education" will overcome a hundred thousand years of species evolution... We humans from the moment of birth onward sex each other within a minute fraction of a second, and we do it because doing so is a key to survival. So regrettably, if you cannot meet that mark then you are going to be seen as a man in a dress... Is that a bad thing? I rather doubt it could be called good... but if the person in that state is fine with it, then so am I... but what I hope will happen is that faced with the reality, and not the fantasy as most are, that more will buckle down and do the work needed to meet those marks... work such as rooting out and disposing of ones ill gotten Male Privilege for example

    Lastly... I still abide by what I said earlier "

    Women are lesser in our world and they are judged by a totally different scale than men and there is no way you are going to even begin to change that until you know to your bones that as a woman who never had the privilege rather than the indignity of a man who has lost his..." so be a strong woman but understand what it means to be a strong woman in this life rather than being a strong man playing at woman...

    MKIA

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  19. To MKIA:

    Thank you for your prompt and amazing response (No, I'm not being sarcastic).

    I think I understood your argument a little better this time, and I can definitely see where you are coming from.

    My one point of contention with your first segment about trans woman as a descriptor as opposed to an qualifier is that you are operating under the assumption that we have not always been female. Before anyone gets upset at this, please let me explain.

    Trans people's brain chemistry is different than normal cisgendered people (if you have to ask what cisgendered is, you probably are one). We literally have the wrong bodies for our brains. Yes, we wind up getting socialized as the physical birth sex growing up, however it always felt wrong to me and several others I know for this to happen. Life is always awkward and usually rife with depression while a trans person is growing up, but if we make it and come to terms with ourselves (despite MUCH outside opposition), we start transitioning and life starts getting a little brighter.

    Yes, not all of us make the most beautiful women (puberty often leaves us with bodies that horrify us), but most of us do our best. I know natal born cisgendered women who often get immediately pegged as men. Should they still be referred to as men? Or do they not try hard enough? I know some men I've seen have told them to try wearing makeup and dresses, but I, personally, find that offensive.

    I'm digressing. I apologize. I meant to continue on with the brain being the wrong sex. After we start hormones, we go through a second puberty. It is often the time where we start presenting ourselves publicly as our proper gender. However, despite everything going on, we have always been women even if everything else was so screwed up. It's not a choice, it's who we are, and it's a hard life.

    Next, I do agree. It's not a game. People are MURDERED because they are trans. Not because they are a man or a woman. In addition, some trans people are murdered for being a man or a woman.

    I'm not saying all this out of some misplaced "male privilege" nonsense. I'm saying this as a person who has been discriminated against beyond regular sexual discrimination. I went through a LONG period where I could not get a job once it came out that I was trans. I'm not proud to admit that I did occasionally have to pretend to be male in order to get a job. It disgusted me beyond words, but it was either that or be homeless.

    You don't even want to know what my significant other (natal born female) had to say when she read your post, so my being vocal has nothing to do with male or female. By the way, the strong women in my life I mentioned: maternal grandmother worked three jobs, went to college and raised eight children after her husband left her. Paternal grandmother ran her house and took no bunk from anyone. Mother was one of the feminist in the seventies. So if I seem a bit vocal, it comes from a long line of feminist.

    In conclusion, I'm not playing, and this isn't from the stand point of someone who has lost male privilege. This is from the stand point of someone who has seen her community belittled, degraded, and pigeonholed by people who don't have all the facts but would rather point and laugh at the "freaks" instead of seeing this discrimination as a real problem.

    Again, I never want to downplay the trouble and discrimination women go through. I have been subjected to that myself, and it's not pretty. I'm merely trying to point out that trans people have their own discrimination that they face when they are "outed" by anyone.

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  20. Does this mean I have to give up driving bulldozers?....

    'cause I'm sorry, that's gonna be a deal breaker, who'd wanna be a REAL womon if I can't have guys competing with each other over me because I stand out from all the other women in my own way.

    There's much valid stuff here, but I think it is also easily interpreted incorrectly by most for reasons MKIA has noted.

    IE: that most view themselves and how male privilege relates to them, from their lifetime of being male and the male perspective (entitlement) they have (rightfully) developed as a result of that life.

    For a woman such as me, it's hard to say (if, or) how much male privilege I've been afforded.

    I can drive a bulldozer.

    MOST girls who grew up where I did CAN'T drive bulldozers.

    SOME can though.

    So is that because I was allowed more freedom growing up than other girls and was taught to drive bulldozers because I was born male and that kind of thing was allowed and expected of boys?

    Maybe. Maybe I did get male privilege afforded me, and maybe THAT is why I earn the same as your average male (in my field) when most other women earn far less as hairdressers and secretaries. (or in fact MORE! as school teachers and child carers).

    But then, what about the one or two other (natal born) girls who grew up near me, also as farm girls, who were the apple of their daddy's eye (like me) and who (in some cases), although he protected them more so than his boys (who he practically threw into the driver’s seat to the chant of "be a man", still managed get her try, and like me, made sure she was better than the boys?

    What is it that they experienced?

    Can't possibly have been male privilege, they'd have had to have a penis.

    Yet despite their miniscule numbers, they were given the same opportunities as me.

    Were they normal women and are most other women just too lazy or scared to stand up for themselves and do as these other girls and I had?

    Will the other girls be seen as "trans-women" because they can drive a bulldozer, they had the opportunity to learn and that is not typical of what most females get?

    Am I still “privileged” because I was allowed the opportunity more easily than the other girls? they had to work a little harder to be allowed their shot?

    Maybe? But! what of now for me?

    Now I have to work harder than most women to get around those freedoms I was afforded early in life, which have shaped me as a slightly more masculine woman, which many men find unattractive and or threatening.

    A problem the other bulldozer driving girls don't have because despite them being afforded more leeway than most of our other sisters, they were still ALSO allowed to indulge fully in what IS afforded female children and NOT male children and I wasn't I was restricted.

    To be continued.....

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  21. Part 2:

    Am I more privileged than most of the other females around me?

    Yes AND! No.

    The problem is not with me, it is with their knowledge of my history and their interpretation of me and my life because of that knowledge.

    THEY perceive I was privileged and resent me and I’ve experience misandry because of that, but relative to myself as a woman and in comparison to other female born women, I'd argue I'm NOT privileged at all, in fact, I don't and NEVER HAVE benefited from having been born male, I actually suffer for it in every way possible.

    Was I a male child? Did I experience male privilege?

    My (personal) take is: NO (in spite of what every other asshole who thinks they know me and my life better than I know myself; might suggest)

    Privilege is not relevant to a person due to their physical sex (although it, like everything else, is decided on that) it is relevant to a person's LIFE sex.

    If you ARE male (as most "trans-women" ARE! regardless of the state of their genitals) and your life is destined to be male, you get and are able to exploit that male privilege and will never fully be rid of it, nor would you have a problem with it or want fully relinquish it

    If you are female (in spite of physical anatomy) and your life is destined to be female (and always was) then male privilege is actually NOT privilege at all and its concept as others apply it (falsely) to you, is in fact a disadvantage.

    So I’m sorry, I have to disagree on this, I can’t “root out” or relinquish something I’ve never had. The best I can do is separate myself from people who perceive I had it and the shut up about my history and GTFO with my life as I always have and would normally live it. To do otherwise means I’m pretending to be something I’m not and never was:

    A “trans-woman”…..

    A male/man.

    As for Jamie’s girlfriends:

    And they seem even more ashamed of themselves than I do that they have a desire that is so contrary to what a "modern woman" is supposed to be. Or they are angry - angry at the feminists for stirring up such a muck and forcing them to try to live their lives in a way that they don't feel is right - trying to be equals to men-Jamie

    Jamie, either what you’ve written is very poorly worded, you’re bullshitting and all your girlfriends are trannies, or not one of them IS actually a woman yet (they’re all immature and still GIRLS, not yet women).

    There is not a WOMAN on this earth who thinks she is less than a man’s equal. Does that mean she will not “submit” to him? Not at all! We do it NOT because we are “less than” but because it is in our nature it is an innate part of our programming put there to ensure continuation of the human species.

    Feminists… the modern woman…. What a load of total horse shit!! Women are and always have been individuals, they run their own lives their own way and make the best decisions available to them under any given circumstances and have done since the dawn of time. It’s NOT a new or modern concept.

    (I'd like it noted that I just pulled a new and hopefully very purposeful term “Life-sex” out of thin air; the sex you are destined to be in life from birth until death, regardless of any circumstantial factors, an defined by the life you live in totality. YOU saw it here first folks! Van Buren said it).

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  22. Oh, and come to think of it, that might also explain why your views on what it is to be female and what it is to be a woman are so distorted Jamie; Iether you've never met a real woman or you've never had much opportunity to observe one in action.

    That's understandable, most of them are so busy with husbands, children, careers, life in general, that that the only females left around for people like you and most other men to observe and base their opinion of women on, are the insecure immature kind who are still really just girls TRYING to be women themselves.

    They all band together in a group (like idiots!) and support their "girlfriends" In their struggles to find love as they each reach theIr 30s 40s and 50s instead of finding ways to separate themselves from all the other barbies, so that a man can see them for who they are, what they like, and get to know them and who knows; maybe fall in love with them for something other than sex or their looks.

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  23. This privilege superficiality is fun, found me some inverted privilege!

    http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/06/08/female-privilege/

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  24. Sigh... it's sickening how it doesn't take long when the conversation is about Male Privilege for the the men-in-frocks to bring out the Men's Rights Brigade... Cause we all know that men are sooooo oppressed by women...Right? What, with our not staying in the kitchen where we belong and all... You poor oppressed Babies! Don't see how you can stand it!

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  25. To the last anon, with your "inverted" priviledge; how typical of a mans preception of how women experience life, the attitude expressed in that post is excatly the reason "trans-women" are rejected.

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  26. NYF said

    MKIA you couldn't have said it better.

    Now if the men in dresses would move along and go ride their Harleys while wearing their hot pants, we can get on to discussing what is really important.




    Life :)

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  27. Despite the fact this essay is currently the feature article on T Central, the owners do not approve of what Miz has written! I wonder why? You have only to check out the comment section to discover that. *I would comment there but for some reason I cannot fathom they refuse my comments. Probably because I make them feel uncomfortable by pointing out the truth in issues; that and the fact I refuse to reveal my real name or identity. My identity is as true and honest as that of any writer or stage performer, Bram Stoker, Marilyn Monroe etc. It's well known that Cassandraspeaks is Evangelina Carters and those are names I have used exclusively for at least seven years when writing essays or comments on blogs.

    Anyway that issue aside; lets talk about Male Privilege and it's brother "Trans-Privilage" shall we. I've talked privately with a few people on this issue since MKIA's essay hit the headlines (so to speak) One of whom, who has written comments here. Van Buren, I like her respect her and so I listen to what she has to say and what she thinks especially as "Male Privilege" affects her and affected her.

    Male privilege is like the air you breath, it's there and is taken for granted to such an extent that you don't realise it's there until suddenly you're gasping for breath because it's gone. Now depending on your individual situation and circumstance as well as motivation for transition you may neither need it desire it or seek to continue to rely on it. Depending on your early childhood the extent of it's effect will be greater or lesser felt post transition. Where it's most damaging, for a transsexual, effect resides is in "attitude" and it is so easy to see that reflected in the views and comments and blog posts in the vast majority of TG blog sites.

    Van Buren makes the point that any male privilege bestowed upon her during childhood and beyond was unwanted and she actually finds damaging so how can it be viewed as any kind of privilage that gives her advantage over other women? I can see why she would make that point and think in those terms. Being raised as a boy against our will as all type VI transsexuals are, causes a great deal of damage, pain, stress and trauma to us all. That is why women Like Liz at "Notes From The T Side" advocates early intervention and for treatment to begin pre-puberty, a view I happen to share. Under those circumstances any male privilege bestowed is certainly lessened, however, bestowed it is. The growing pre pubescent TS girl will certainly not be groomed for motherhood in the way other girls will. Sure, the child may very well seek other girls to share playtime with and join in with their games of motherhood, I know I did but when I began playing music, performing in theatre and touring with youth theatre at 13/14 my exploits were thrust into the faces of anyone who lingered too long too listen to either me or my proud parents. My sister who also possesses great skills in a quite different area (she was very athletic) did not receive quite the same adoration from the general family. But then she didn't expect it and therin lays a clue to the effects of what we are describing here as male privilage. One manifestation is that kudos for an achievement is expected and when it doesn't come some petulance ensues. That is the kind of thing we constantly see reflected in blog posts and in the public behaviour of the TG it is just one manifestation of what Miz is talking about.

    cassandraspeaks

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  28. @ Cassandra,

    To an extent I see your point and understand what you are saying, and yes, to an extent I agree.

    To clarify my position, I guess I use female as a point of reference for myself (and always have) where as (it seems) most others use humanity on a whole (male AND female) in their view of themselves and (I guess if they know my history) of me.

    In effect; I feel as I do because I view myself not AS a group (Transgender for instance) but as an individual COMPARED to a group (female).

    Relative to any female my age and from my locality, I would challenge you or anyone else to find some way that I have benifited or had life easier (at any time in my life) than any of my female peers. I most certainly have been afforded different treatment and opportunities, and probably haven't had to face certain issues they have (and sadly probably never will) but whether or not those things can be viewed as a benefit or privilege, is open to individual interpretation and relative to the life I have icommon with my female peers, I see those things personally as not privileges but dissadvanages.

    Anyone is free to suggest otherwise, but I've learned not to let others have the power to tell me who or what I am or what my life is, (how would they know?)

    I am very different to most the people here however, who insist on dragging the caveot that they are male and are entitled to the treatment afforded men, by being open about who they are and how they got to be that thing.

    Finally, the other difference between me and most is that, I didn't have to TRY to shed the little that my male life had afforded me, "transition" removed anything and EVERYTHING that life had afforded me as simply the price of admission (and people may not believe it, but I DO mean EVERYTHING!).

    But that is the case for MOST who transition early in life and is also something those who transition later have NO concept of because they are to busy feeling sorry for themselves because SOME of what male life/privilege has granted them is being lost, and DAMIT! that's just not "fair" they're men after all, why is life being so mean to them? It's NEVER happened before!!!!

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  29. Revised to clarify and for context:

    Relative to any female my age and from my locality, I would challenge you or anyone else to find some way that I have benifited in or had life made easier (at any time in my life) than any of my female peers. (due to being born male OR, born with a penis) I most certainly have been afforded different treatment and opportunities, and probably haven't had to face certain issues SOME of them MAY have (and sadly probably never will)

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  30. I've an unfair advantage so I will keep it vague... But I too agree with Cassandra and if you will indulge me, I would like to point to a thing in your life that was there because of MP. That being the economic tool you used to get thorough the rather expensive process of surgeries. Yes I know that women do that same work you do and they do it for the same reason, the money, but you yourself know how rare it is and how unlikely it would have been for you to have taken that path otherwise... Facing what we face and having to do what it is we do. The privilege we were given from birth is not always a bad thing... The unfettered curiosity and ability to explore, along with the tool of self confidence are of a great help as we face the world alone for such a daunting task and that is a very good thing.

    The point still being, that no matter what it, we MUST recognize it for what it is and why it is so. So that even if we do go on to become "Ballsy Chicks," that we do so only as any other Ballsy Chicks without our history would....

    It is why I, as Callie calls it on T Central, "rant" so about the Transgender not assimilating or blending... Not because I think that everyone who sets foot to the path must be a beauty queen... God only knows when I travel the country side none of the women I see without our history even comes close to that!

    No... it is because of the arrogance that the TG show to the world. The arrogance that has them in the first stages of transition, telling the world weather interested or not, every last bit of minutia about trans this and that and themselves, as men are always want to do. Yet in the same breath claiming to be women...

    It's just too jarring on the sensibilities! To act as a man would and then compound it as only a man could by demanding that the world arrange itself to their comfort. If one is bound and determined to educate the world that this is possible... might I offer a small suggest that one do it after one has a clue? Something which can only happen after one as completed the journey and truly understands the privilege they were given as a birth right and has done all that is humanly possible to abdicate that same privilege.

    MKIA

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  31. Rare yes, unlikely most certainly (probably about as unlikely as a female being born with a penis) unheard of? impossible? most certainly NOT!!!!

    Is privilege decided on probability?

    You are to tell me that I am "privileged", that I am better off in life and the world somehow than my natal born peers, because I get paid $30 an hour to do filthy manual labour, when they have to do terrible things such as take care of children all day or be a law clerk to earn that same wage?

    I don’t doubt that many people who “transition” DO! Experience preferential treatment to the women around them due to male chauvinism, and the fact that they receive that willingly and even take actions to ensure it happens, IMHO speaks volumes about then, but I wasn’t talking about them, I was talking about ME!

    So I still disagree with you.

    I must say I'm terribly confused by the stance on this issue that has been taken by some I had thought I knew to be very different to what/who they now appear to be.

    I have decided that this thread and the concept it is based on has absolutely nothing to do with me what-so-ever so after a final few thoughts I will vacate and chat with some of you elsewhere.

    Just the fact that someone considers men/males to be privileged, carries with it the implication that they feel there are some aspects of a male life that are superior to their own, some aspects they aspire to or feel on some level that THEY should be entitled to.

    That strikes me as extremely unusual coming from people who were born male and who have supposedly done everything they can to be rid of the curse that being male has brought to their life (IE Transsexuals), if the things males are afforded are desirable or preferable to what you have as a woman, then why did you not stay a man?

    I live my life as an individual, NOT as a group. The fact that someone incorrectly perceived/s me as being "privileged" due to THEIR incorrect assumption as to my belonging to a certain group, does NOT make that perception of privilege, the truth of me and my life.

    It seems you all WANT to be women, I simply want what I have always wanted, to be myself, no better or worse than any other woman.

    Different, yes! and I was "less than" other women for a time, but now I think not.

    I am also not "less than" any man.

    Different, YES! the fact that I'm NOT a man or male does NOT make me of lesser value as a person, I'm far more capable than many males in as many aspects of my life, as I am less capable than them in as many other aspects, that's the whole point! (am I the only one who gets that?)

    I demand to know who in their divine wisdom “bestowed” this mythical cursed male privilege on me, without my consent or knowledge and with certainly NO benefit to me and the life I live (quite the contrary it seems, in fact) so that I can ensure they reverse their evil doing, lest I be cursed to being male (without a penis), again! against my wishes, and against my every action to the contrary, from the very day I was born, for the rest of my life! (wow! That sound’s suspiciously like the mantra of another “community” of people who are plentiful and hang out around these parts, you women of history aren’t subscribing to their ideology by chance are you?)

    Wake the fuck up to yourselves PLEASE!!!!

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  32. Good lord, VB.

    We get it. You're a woman, you've always been a woman, you've never even remotely benefitted from the fact that you were born with a penis and even if you had, which you haven't, you've taken painstaking step after step after step to rid yourself of such privilege, as the mere suggestion that you may have possessed such a privilege at any point, or even worse, now, is a threat to your womanhood.

    For Chrissake. I'll agree to "wake the fuck up to" myself if you agree to get the fuck over yourself.

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  33. No Fionnuala, you DON'T get it, and sadly for you (and others) i suspect you NEVER will.

    I apologize though, you're right, I've done what I always do and commented under the assumption that one size fits all and it is becoming more and more apparent to me that that is in no way correct and that I only hurt myself and my own happiness by thinking that way.

    Best to you.

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  34. I don't think I know any of those who have commented here in person. I do know about 12 post srs mtf in person. They seem to fit into 2 basic categories. Some are men with vaginas, the others are women who once had a penis. As to MP, not one of them will deny they had it.

    Now MKIA leave the boyz to their illusions.

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  35. I think Mz Know it all knows stuff all and is talking through her nether regions. Who the hell does she think she is? A self-appointed smart a*se in my opinion who should begin to realise that much of what she says here doesn't not apply to everyone.

    An oni mouse

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  36. Dear, dear An Oni Mouse
    My, what colorful English you have! And such a mastery of the grammar too!

    But no Dear... despite your conjecture, I was not appointed by self or otherwise. I'm just a ordinary woman with a heck of a lot more experience than most of the rah rah TG have! A woman who is trying in vain I fear to point out that big Ol' glittery pink elephant sitting smack in the middle of the "trans" blindspot in hopes that maybe, just maybe y'all might stop making such fools of yourselfs!

    But if you want to keep on being read by blind and deaf men on a moonless night at a half a mile and if you really like being laughed about the moment you are out of ear shot, then please! Be my guest!

    But if perchance you might actually want to be perceived remotely as a woman, then heed my words...

    Your call!
    MKIA

    MKIA

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  37. "I'm just a ordinary woman with a heck of a lot more experience than most of the rah rah TG have!"-MKIA

    Miz, you're my friend, but which is it?

    you're an ordinary woman, or you're a woman with male "privilege"?(that you obviously have to keep check on)

    You're better/higher than others (just like a man) because you have more experience?

    Can we call it what it is now: a male upbringing instead of doing the TG thing and playing the victim by referring to it as “privilege” from our self-proclaimed ivory tower?

    The essence of what this post is about is "gender" social expectations relative to males and females in any given environment all over the world.

    Transsexuals DON'T change "gender" we change SEX.

    "Gender" varies infinitely and is relative to what is needed socially and who is available to fill that need. Stop worrying about it, stop thinking like a tranny (because most women really don’t unless they’re [radical] feminists) and just be a damn female! That IS who you are isn’t it?

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  38. Who you are and have ALWAYS been?... Please Miz, stop trying and just be yourself! the you you always were, own yourself! people will "get it" I promise! it's hard! yes, it hurts YES! but no human is perfect, people WANT to understand, they are all looking for the same thing as you are, (the right heart to pair with their own) and it's far easier for them to find yours if it's right there on your damned sleeve. People can sense if you’re trying to hide something from them.

    It’s not about what THEY think is the truth, it’s about what YOU believe to be YOUR truth, those who would deny it will never be changed and aren’t worth inclusion in your life, that said; I see no reason to give them the option TO deny it unless absolutely necessary and that includes a prospective partner.

    I love ya babe and you know where to find me.

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  39. I would like to offer, for your consideration, what I consider to be a clear example of male privilege, kindly provided by MsEsnaught/Troop/Natasha/Virginia, here...http://virginiastonic.blogspot.com/2012/09/lemons-on-sale-again.html

    Here, IMHO, we have a clear example of someone defining women from their own personal, "out, loud and proud", TRANS* perspective.

    As is typical of privileged people who are, "not horribly or seriously concerned with parsing every behavior as male or female in nature", they simply declare as incontroverible "fact" that it is, "so very male of them to tell (trans*)-women that they are not women because they do not fit their little mold of what defines a woman". "Little mold"??? Oh! Is that the one that YOU, "MsEsnaught/Troop/Natasha/Virginia, define? Like "women have penises and men get pregnant", because YOU, in all your trans-wisdom, say so?

    Perhaps I misunderstand. Maybe being told that because we, "were born into the world in male bodies" that we are by definition, "just like other trans women" and that we just "took the stealth road", that hey! We are just like them....forever trans.

    Is this not a prime example of women being told by men, just who we are and how we should just accede to their superior male/trans-minded defininton that "Women of History = Trans Women"

    Sorry Charlie. Not in this girl's world.

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  40. Dearest VB
    We both had a lifesaving surgery that reshaped what was so very wrong physically with our bodies into the closest possible approximation of right that is medically available. So why do you struggle so with the concept that there was also a social-acculturation that came with that "wrongness," which, after SRS is equally in need of revision?

    Look, it took years of living a normal female life to fully and clearly see as a woman, first in the men around me, the privilege which was their birth right.. and then, the privilege, as a female which was not mine... Then to take that long and very hard look into my own mirror again and again, to see that much as I did not desire it, as hard as it was to see, I too had been given those same privileges... But wanted or not, there they were, all these pernicious little wrongs had cleverly been built into the very matrix of my thinking of self and of the universe and as such, they are diametrically in opposition to everything the cultural creature known as the human female is. So they too also had to be removed and reshaped into rightness just as my body had been!

    Look this is an aside from having a sexually dysphoria, this is about the basic things taught us by parents and the society we live from the moment of birth on. Things which few are even aware of much less things which they might set out to change, things such as what is right and wrong! Each and every one of which is slanted one direction or another based upon a few ounces of tissue...

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  41. As for me dear heart! Thank you for your concern but I am quite fine! I am clear and happy and I do not struggle with this at all! I turn off my puter and I go out into a world where my past only vaguely figures like a bad dream might...

    Now if I could only win the lottery so I could be finally be a lady who lunches!

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  42. So why do you struggle so with the concept that there was also a social-acculturation that came with that "wrongness,"~ Miz

    I don't have a problemwith it at all:

    Can we call it what it is now: a male upbringing~Me

    What I DO have a problem with is you and others telling me it was a "privilege" and that I and my life have somehow benifited from it (as it seems you think you and yours have, which is fine, you'd know) in ways that natal females haven't/wouldn't have, and that I am somehow residually male because of that.

    Let me tell you the one and only thing granted me in life with the fact that I was male taken into account:

    The love of my parents.

    How do I know? Because that was my whole life until "transition" and when I took the illusion that I was male away from them, they took their love away from me in return. I had no-one and nothing else. Is a parents love a benift, a privilege NOT afforded to female children?

    I can assure you that WASN'T taken away from my younger sister when it was found SHE had a life threatening medical condition in early life, quite the contrary in fact, they moved heaven and earth to save HER life.

    If YOU had (male) privilege, that's fine, I don't think any less of you, but is your life the same as mine in ANY way?

    If you try to tell me I am or have been privileged over another relative to my own life I reserve the right to tell you to go to hell and come back and talk to me when you've learned some humility.

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  43. "... and that I am somehow residually male because of that."

    This is exactly what I was talking about, above. Not I, nor Miz, I believe is saying that perhaps having MP at some point in one's life makes necessarily makes one "residually male," no more than did having a penis at some point in one's life.

    You're reading too much into what people are saying. Stop looking for things which aren't there and stop making comments intended in a general manner about you.

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  44. *YOU* Fionnuala, were not saying a damn thing, Miz wrote the post and responded to me and as far as I am aware, is capable of clarifying what she meant all on her own (if she feels it needs clarification)

    *I* as an individual, am allowed to read any context I'd like to read out of what is written, and the context I read out of it is that if someone does not attempt to rid themselves of (root out) all aspects of their (what the author deems to be uniquely) male past/upbringing and/or the attitude they MUST (everyone, without exception) have gained due to it, then they will be read as male.

    The problem with making comments/statements intended in a general manner (generalisations) is that we each have only our own personal experiences and opinions on which to base those (often unfounded) generalisations and there will ALWAYS be people whose experiences in life DO vary from our own.

    Say what you like about me and the comments I make, they are always clarified as my own experience/perspectives alone.

    Should someone else deem my experiences more or less valid than their own and/or measure themselves against me (as I have purposefully insisted upon here in an effort to counteract the potential harm a post like this might do to the life of someone who faces similar circumstances to mine) and find themselves to be different to (or the same as) me or perceive themselves to be lacking in some way, then perhaps this generalisation is less than 100% accurate for everyone it is intended to encompass (in real world terms).

    http://ts-si.org/component/content/article/19836

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  45. I see 'trans-privelege' as that oppressive behavior so typical of TG's like 'natasha/troop/virgini'Ms. IsNot seeking affirmation by equating themselves to women by simple decree.

    What I find oppressive and downright disturbing to the point of disgust, is "trans-women" who are out, loud and proud, "educating" and mansplaining to the general public that they, these recently "transitioned", (however that is defined, ala "Sandinization"), trans-educators are well really, really women...Just like the rest of us.

    That is the problem I see with "trans-privilege". I find it so typically male that these guys, give not a rats ass the damage they do to the future of young women, born transsexual, who just want to correct their correctable defects and live simple lives as women, not TRANS-women.

    They do, as MKIA points out, just ignore our concerns, skirt the issue and derail the conversation to their tranny talking points. That is trans-privilege, IMHO.

    No matter the observable

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  46. I don't have a problemwith it at all:

    "Can we call it what it is now: a male upbringing~Me

    What I DO have a problem with is you and others telling me it was a "privilege" and that I and my life have somehow benifited from it (as it seems you think you and yours have, which is fine, you'd know) in ways that natal females haven't/wouldn't have, and that I am somehow residually male because of that."

    I have trouble with the distinction drawn between male upbringing and male privilege. The latter is simply the expression of the former.

    I also have trouble understanding what the term "residually male" means as an inference from the original post. The premise of the original post at it's core means that wearing women's clothing, taking hormones and even having surgery does not confirm that you are a woman unless you are in fact prepared to and will lay down the privilege of being a male, even a pretend male for part of your life. Not always is a privilege only inhabited it is also conferred.

    And in this intersection of conferral (male upbringing) and assumption (which men, even pretend men do), albeit mostly unconsciously things manifest: making everything about yourself, diverting, speaking down to others, seeing women "beneath". Being biologically organized as the penetrator, carrying this extra strength that can and so often does crush those that cannot match it, never fearing to walk across a dark parking lot because you are vulnerable to being violated and penetrated, being paid less or equal but once you hit that glass ceiling the gig is up. And never, ever being subjected to the Cinderella Paradigm that subordinates you to the kiss that bring you to consciousness, and being coached to submit to the one you love and so many other aspects of female upbringing.

    So to some extent, even if your upbringing was without conditioning as you seem to express, what you were not burdened with and not subjected to is all part of your experience of the world. If you fathom this out maybe your thoughts might change, maybe not.

    This is not about being residually male but rather it seems to me transforming your perceptions in addition to everything else.

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  47. "I have trouble with the distinction drawn between male upbringing and male privilege. The latter is simply the expression of the former.- KD

    That's ONE part.

    Not all people who get SRS used that upbringing, those "freedoms" to become high paid, suit wearing male lawyers, who screw women (both literally and figuratively speaking).

    And a VERY small minority of people from the larger group of people who get SRS, also never received MORE (different YES, more? NO!) freedom and opportunities than their natal born counterparts, and an even SMALLER! Minority actually received LESS freedom, LESS opportunity and LESS adoration.

    When I was 5 years old, my parents were told my sister (11 months younger than me) would not live past the age of 15. They set about saving her life and at the same time, giving her the best and fullest life they possibly could in case they failed.

    I have played second fiddle to her and my older brother my entire life.

    EVERYTHING I have, I earned for myself with little more than passing acknowledgement from my parents.

    I don't view "privilege" as being based on sex, save for the women I know who have the things I need and have always needed, but will never have.

    I don't view males as being privileged, because unlike you and most of the others here, I DON’T- have, NEED, or desire (and NEVER HAVE) THEIR! role in life and the in the world.

    I can see how a single mother (for instance) might FEEL men to be privileged, as she has a family to support (the same responsibilities as most men) and would not be paid, respected or promoted as well as a man, but at my current age and from my current perspective, I view things as most females with that same perspective view them.

    Fear of attack and sexual assualt and possible resulting pregnancy?

    Do I take comfort in not having/had to face that? you would, I don't, yet OTHERS might view me as having been privileged in some way because of that. To them I would say: what THEY perceived as my privilege is now largely gone and what I perceive as THEIR privilege remains.

    My place is to find a man who is well privileged in HIS! world, that I love and who loves me, that can help take care of me and our future family in the ways a man is supposed to (for which he might need to be privileged amongst men)

    Male privilege can NOT be applied to a female (IMO), no matter if she was born with male genitals or not, if she IS a woman, then the conditions afforded males are of no use to her in early (or most aspects of her) life and are in fact (IMO) disadvantages/counterproductive

    But what the fuck would I know? I'm just a dumb-ass WOMAN trying to keep up with the rest of the females in the world, just as I have been since the day I was born.

    I couldn't possibly know about male "privilege" and how much better my life has been than other women's because of that.

    YES! Men APPEAR to get a bigger slice of the pie in this world, I was NOT disputing that, but for a woman (generally); that is not now and never has been a thought or a concern. It IS however, for a MAN who is TRYING to be a woman (and apparently failing).

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  48. Perhaps I am wrong here, but what I hear is that men who live, work and fuck as men for 40+ years and who used that station in life to do whatever it is they did with the whole of their lives, like build a (male) career and father a family *might*, just might, carry some of that paternalistic attitude with them through transition.

    This male thinking can be seen not only in the demeaning pontifiations of Ms Troop/IsNot, but also in such interestingly subtle concepts as what K.Dumke described as 'The Cinderella Paradyme.

    I can assure you that I was not "coached to submit to the one you love and so many other aspects of female upbringing". Nor did I have to transform my, "perceptions in addition to everything else".

    In my experience of these things came quite naturally just as soon as those very necessary changes were made to my body that made me whole.

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  49. Anon #75: What's a "male" career? A web architect, like me? An attorney, like Kathryn? A bulldozer driver, like VB?

    Sandra Day O'Connor was an attorney. Marissa Mayer architected Google Maps and is now the CEO of Yahoo! Would you also refer to those women as having male careers, or are they only male careers when the woman in said career was born transsexual?

    To tell the truth, I am very jealous of my ex-spouse. She's a preschool teacher with custody of our kids during the week. While I have to commute an hour each way every day to pay for much of it. It sucks, and I'd rather be doing something else, but it's my responsibility to my children and to her. I remember when we divorced, for reasons unrelated to my transition, my attorney and my mom were aghast at what I had agreed to. I specifically remember my Mom saying to me, "... no man would ever agree to pay this much." My attorney wanted me to pay less money to force my X to get a job. But I didn't. I didn't think that was the best thing for my kids. So 2/3 of my take-home went to her and I have a lot of debt, but it's OK because my kids don't have to come home from school to a nanny.

    Paternalistic? Maternalistic? I don't know. It was the right thing to do by my kids, which is all that matters.

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  50. In the case of those natally born women that you make reference to, I would would consider those careers that were usurped by exceptional women despite the 'glass ceilings' and 'good ol' boy' obstacles traditionally thrown in the way of women.

    Does the fact that the US Navy employs one female fighter pilot negate the fact that military fighter pilots have traditionally been male? I would say no.

    In situations like yours or KD's, or even VB's, I would say that the employer had the wisdom to consider your value to his bottom line, and found that keeping you was less trouble than trying to deal with replacing you. Not everyone is so fortunate.

    However, you seemed to have missed my point, which is that what I see being alluded to here in this post as 'trans-privilege', is that attitude, carried over by many late transitioners, who did in fact enjoy male privilege, that causes them to carry over those 'male' traits, attitudes and behaviors such as KD noted above: "mostly unconsciously things manifest: making everything about yourself, diverting, speaking down to others, seeing women "beneath"...."And never, ever being subjected to the Cinderella Paradigm that subordinates you to the kiss that bring you to consciousness, and being coached to submit to the one you love and so many other aspects of female upbringing".

    I suppose tht it could be argued that you are 'privileged' to do the right thing and provide for your ex-wife and children, because youe were able to keep your well paying job that you acquired as a male. If a woman had that same job and same pay in many states like California or Washington, she would most likely would be required by the courts to support her ex-husband if he could convince the court that he was unable to find work as an electrical engineer, and needed to go back to school at age 50+ to earn a new degree in say "Gender Studies".

    That is 'male privilege'.

    #75

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  51. VB stated:

    "YES! Men APPEAR to get a bigger slice of the pie in this world, I was NOT disputing that, but for a woman (generally); that is not now and never has been a thought or a concern. It IS however, for a MAN who is TRYING to be a woman (and apparently failing)."

    I have no idea what planet you are living on, but you just swiped the entire women feminist movement off the table and re-enforced male privilege something that women have been fighting for centuries.

    I don't like the cool aid meme, but girl that's cool aid.

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  52. To bolster what Kathryn said... VB, you're really missing the boat. I won't speak for Australia, but here in the states, we had the woman's suffrage movement, Title IX, the National Organization for Women, and back in the 80's, a lot of women, or men trying to be women, as you put it, got awfully worked up about something called the Equal Rights Amendment.

    I wonder if women in countries that practice genital mutilation would agree with your statement that equality with men is not a concern. I wonder if women in Afghanistan and elsewhere who are not allowed to drive and get acid thrown on their face for the "crime" of attending school would agree with you.

    I wonder if any of the above would agree that men merely "appear" to get an equal slice of the pie.

    For you to state otherwise demonstrates a jaw-dropping amount of ignorance.

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  53. I'm getting super tired of all this, you guys really are total dipshits aren’t you!

    Your male life and the perspective on life and the world you’ve gained from it, shows with EVERTHING you write.

    Most women don’t worry about most of these things most of the time because they are ignorant to them, they’ve NEVER had them to even know they are possible let-a-lone to want them and think that people who have them are “privileged”, unlike you guys, who HAVE and want to maintain them and want to change what it is to be a woman and what it is to live life as one.

    "I wonder if women in Afghanistan and elsewhere who are not allowed to drive and get acid thrown on their face for the "crime" of attending school would agree with you."-Fionnuala

    I wonder how envious those women are of the "men" in their country when they get their M16 at ten years old? and how envious they are as they watch those boys get buried at age 14, how “privileged” they think those “men” were?

    If you're a woman, at least you might stand a chance of making your twenties because the men who DO survive past that age (THEY are the privileged ones, the older guys who actually get to HAVE lives as and make something of their lives as men. Which coincidentally, is quite comparable with "trans" people/men) need you for sex and to cook their dinner.

    Everything in the world is relative to everything else EVERYTHING!

    Everyone is more privileged in some way than someone else. We don’t all walk a straight line based on what sex we are, we each (every one of us, regardless of our sex) walk a Geodesic, and to measure whether someone is truly “privileged” over someone else, you have to examine their life in totality including expectations/responsibilities/factors that disadvantage them, in doing so, there are VERY few people who could be seen as better off overall (in every way) than the others that share the same space and time.

    Kathryn, I could care less about the feminist movement, it is quiet women who stay out of the limelight and work behind the scenes that are the ones who make change in the world for women and our lives, whilst feminists make a lot of noise and slow the process down over all and then take credit.

    But! if YOU want to talk about causing difficulty for women; our rights, our lives, and our world, I can assure you that there is NOTHING more damaging than what YOU! yourself do buy fighting for MEN to have the legal right to call themselves women, by trying to redefine what female is, shedding the social responsibilities that come with being men, yet maintaining the additional “privileges” afforded them due to those responsibilities.

    There is NOTHING in the world that reduces NORMAL women’s rights and freedoms quite so universally as THAT, as “trans” rights.

    MAN!

    I live on earth (the real world!) but I come from Venus (originally) which is why all the Martians here (such as yourself), cannot understand me.

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  54. It's basic physics! Einstien's theories of relativity apply to EVERYTHING!

    Prove that E=mc2 is wrong, OR! STFU be grateful for what you have, pleased for others for what THEY have that you don't, understand that there is a million things they face in life that you don't and will never know or hear about and that it is THEIR responsibility to face them alone NOT YOURS!

    IE STFU! and just be a woman.

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  55. VB, this post and the various comments seem to touch a nerve for you. It is not my intention to cause you distress.

    when you say "you have to examine their life in totality including expectations/responsibilities/factors that disadvantage them..." then walk that talk, and show some humility in throwing around opinions about people of whose life you have not the slightest knowledge of.

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  56. I'm not distressed by you personally Kathryn, what you do? Most certainly! But you personally? Not at all.

    With regards to humility, you get what you give in this world, I have treated you accordingly.

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  57. Ah...Gentlemen, and Lady, if I might be heard. It seems that we have again been derailed far afield of the actual issue: IE 'trans-privilege'. Perhaps if we might at least try to stay on topic, avoiding such testosterone driven pissing contests.

    Most ladies tend to avoid them and know from experience that men will always shout them down, puposefully ignoring whatever valid issues might be raised and just beating them into submission with insults, false accusations and veiled innuendo.

    Take this statement for instance: "There is NOTHING in the world that reduces NORMAL women’s rights and freedoms quite so universally as THAT, as “trans” rights".

    I see that as a valid assertion in that providing "rights" for men in dresses, (aka T-women), those real and valid accomodations made for the safety and security of women are negatively impacted. I can offer evidence to support that assertion, but since I suspect you will contend that it is not valid, perhaps you might explain why.

    Can you do that without resorting to insults, hate speech and allegations of bigotry or "trans-misogyny"?

    #75

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  58. So now that we've all vented our spleens, cast our judgments upon each other and pontificated about things that SOME of us obviously have no jurisdiction in doing so, my question is (knowing what I do of the author and what she claims of herself and her life); what exactly was the author's original motivation for this post? What purpose did she hope to achieve?

    Was her intent:

    to help (transgender) men understand what they need to know (IHO) in order to have any chance of passing themselves off as something they obviously are not and never truly will be (women/female)?

    Was it an attempt to instill in transsexual born females the sense that their past is something to be ashamed of and hidden at all costs in an effort to not be judged by others as someone who does not meet some unrealistic people's supposedly universal definition of what female/woman is supposed to be (like)?

    Was it an attempt to insult people she sees as less valid than her due to their attitude towards life and who they are and the choices they make that are different to hers and at the same time, assert some imagined authority on this issue, in an effort to validate herself (due to possible personal insecurities) and perch herself atop some hierarchy?

    It makes no difference what so ever to me, I love her for who I know her to be, but I'm honestly confused about her actual purpose here and concerned about her personal state of mind if she feels the need to write about this kind of topic and most of all, concerned for her future and long term happiness.

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  59. #75... if you are calling women out for using insults and veiled innuendo, don't do the same thing by purposefully referring to them as men. A bit hypocritical, no?

    At any rate... I agree that "trans" rights, when given to men playing at being women, hurt women. I don't have the perspective to know if there is anything which reduces them more. Absolutes being what they are, there probably is, but I can't think of anything at the moment.

    VB: Yes. I am a "total dipshit." Total. I'm not just half a dipshit, I am a total dipshit.

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  60. Hello # 75:

    I think the assertion you are referring to is a valid assertion. The negative impact you are referring to goes far beyond real accommodations made for the safety of women in a physical sense although I don't think you meant that. It re-defines women by diluting women's rights (this is attack #1) and forces women to defend against the intrusion of their spaces (attack #2. One of the most telling signs of this is the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal decision to allow change of gender markers on birth certificates without surgery, not even orchiectomy. The far reaching subtle tremors of this decision will be faced by women no one else.

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  61. USENET all over again.
    Why is it the Tee-Gees have to shove their noes (or other body parts_ into our business.

    And people wonder why I won't support the so called rights of these nut cases to be themselves and invade women's spaces.

    Hell No.


    NYF

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  62. Fionnuala,
    For your sake I hope you truly mean that, but if you don't and are being sarcastic, then I guess it's a self fulfilling prophecy huh.

    FWIW I most certainly am, so you're in good company.

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  63. @VB

    Perhaps the intent was simply as stated; to call attention to the misogyny of "trans-rights".

    I applaud our good barrister for noting some of the more obvious insults.

    Specifically this one wherein, "Ontario Human Rights Tribunal decision to allow change of gender markers on birth certificates without surgery, not even orchiectomy."

    Frankly I am appalled and agree that, "The far reaching subtle tremors of this decision will be faced by women no one else".

    IMHO, it will prove to be just another in a long line of unintended consequences that have actualy been counter-productive to the welfare and well being of women.

    #75

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  64. I just wanted to clarify something about (attack#2) referred to above. In defending against this aspect what is designed into this is of course placing women in a position where they have to take a stand is subsequently interpreted as unreasonable and discriminatory.

    What is especially insidious is that in the reverse case, i.e. female to male transsexuals it is not even seen as a threat because they are still at a disadvantage.

    The result is that women then are called insensitive and discriminatory because of the defensive stance. You are right the decision by the OHR tribunal was short-sighted, insensitive and in complete disregard to the issues it raises in the broader societal context.

    The interesting thing is of course that the decision was widely applauded, especially in the "trans community". What MKIA refers to, is of course not male privilege as a benefit necessarily but rather as an attitude. Not looking beyond your own narrow horizon in actions affecting the world around you is very male. Quite a long time ago a comment made by MKIA on my then existing blog (notwithstanding much innuendo, ad hominem swipes etc.) the core of what she told me struck me and stuck with me. I was and am so grateful for that because it allowed me to examine the blindspot.

    What is interesting is that in some parts I agree with VB that individual situations may vary significantly. In her and Ms. Ensnaught's comment it becomes clear that privilege is viewed as a benefit, and while VB says she has had no such benefit, Ms. Ensnaught asks "how can a trans women experience a benefit from the privilege and how does perception of her by her social environment as trans woman confer a benefit.

    What is really missing in my view is the response and appreciation of the real issue: have you laid down your socialization as a man? - or in the case of transsexuals have you laid down your socialization as a man despite the fact that you always were a woman?

    In this vast swamp of the internet it is apparently usual not to really read what people have to say but rather to respond on whether you agree or disagree with what you believe people are.

    VB has told me that she is is distressed by what I do. This either means who I am (comments have been made to that effect) or what I do as a lawyer (that screw women over as a lawyer [although I am very unsure what that means]) meaning she takes issue with my profession because she does not know anything about my work.
    I don't know her from a hole in the wall except through her writing and neither does she know me.

    She states that I am"fighting for men to have legal rights to call themselves women". In reality I work pro bono on a case that seeks to establish SRS coverage and funding for transsexuals (what we would call a type 5 or 6, Harry Benjamin). That can hardly be classified as "fighting for men to have legal rights to call themselves women". What is ironic, is that it actually is related to a man fighting for the right to call himself a man.

    I say these things because there seems to be no interest to have a discussion about real issues but rather to shout louder than anyone else. Especially in this dispute about trangender vs. transsexuals issue we establish "bull pens" if you will where real conversation is discouraged and toeing the line is encouraged. For me this blog is not part of that, but maybe it could be argued that I like MKIA's discourses because they contain very substantial content that we all would be well to read and consider and am therefore biased.

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  65. ”What MKIA refers to, is of course not male privilege as a benefit necessarily but rather as an attitude”-KD

    ”What is really missing in my view is the response and appreciation of the real issue: have you laid down your socialization as a man? - or in the case of transsexuals have you laid down your socialization as a man despite the fact that you always were a woman?”-KD

    This has been my point from the very start, IMO the word “privilege” as it is used here is NOT used accurately:

    Can we call it what it is now: a male upbringing instead of doing the TG thing and playing the victim by referring to it as “privilege”~VB

    In this vast swamp of the internet it is apparently usual not to really read what people have to say but rather to respond on whether you agree or disagree with what you believe people are-KD

    I’ve read all that people have written, my assertions about who people are, is not based on personal opinion, but rather the attitude and perspectives I take it that people have on life from what and how they write. From you I read a male attitude on these issues. It is apparent (to me at least) that you have no idea how someone who lives life with and views the world from a female perspective. You and others here exhibit in every way (even what and how you write) the exact concept this post is actually talking about.

    Does that mean you are “privileged” or just that you haven’t laid down your male enculturation? Either way, just like everyone else in the world, if you give me a male attitude, then I’ll call you and treat you as a male, that’s all you obviously understand, so what other option do I or anyone else really have? (it’s not personal even though you probably take it that way, from me and from everyone els )

    Cont...

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  66. Part 2:

    Ms. Ensnaught asks "how can a trans women experience a benefit from the privilege and how does perception of her by her social environment as trans woman confer a benefit.~KD

    The problem there is Ms. Ensnaught using the word “woman”. I’ve said repeatedly on many blogs, woman and female aren’t the same thing! Female is a SEX, woman is a term to describe a social status/position. Unless she lays down her social enculturation as a male (which she obviously won’t, and that is her choice) she cannot possibly truly have a complete enough perspective required to occupy the social position of woman, regardless of whether she is physically female or not and the fact that she does (and has too) include her male past in her interactions with others means she also NEVER will gain that perspective, as first hand PERSONAL! Experience is the ONLY way it can truly be gained.

    VB has told me that she is is distressed by what I do. This either means who I am (comments have been made to that effect) or what I do as a lawyer (that screw women over as a lawyer [although I am very unsure what that means]) meaning she takes issue with my profession because she does not know anything about my work.

    In reality I work pro bono on a case that seeks to establish SRS coverage and funding for transsexuals (what *we* would call a type 5 or 6, Harry Benjamin). That can hardly be classified as "fighting for men to have legal rights to call themselves women"
    ~KD

    Please define “WE”.

    I made clear that who you are is of absolutely NO consequence to me, your work however, (which I did have an idea about from what you’ve written about it on other blogs) most certainly DOES distress me.

    I’m all for medical coverage for SRS, and treatment of transsexuals. If you want to really make a difference to transsexuals without damaging women’s/female’s rights, the work on changing the standards of care and treatment protocols so that SRS is funded but as an initial treatment, and prerequisite for HRT. SRS FIRST!and then people can have HRT and make all the legal changes they want/need.

    There won’t be any damage done to the rights and safety of females and I guarantee you there won’t be a single Transsexual person who has a problem looking male for a year or two while having a vagina in their briefs, but! wave that prospect in front of TG man, and I’ll bet he cries bloody murder!

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  67. The word MKIA *should* have used is:

    (male) entitlment

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  68. "I’m all for medical coverage for SRS, and treatment of transsexuals. If you want to really make a difference to transsexuals without damaging women’s/female’s rights, the work on changing the standards of care and treatment protocols so that SRS is funded but as an initial treatment, and prerequisite for HRT. SRS FIRST!and then people can have HRT and make all the legal changes they want/need."

    As a matter of clarification before I answer more comprehensively, how would you deal with the "diagnosis" issue? As you must be aware funding whether public or through insurance requires a threshold for funding. It is an issue that precedes standard of care and treatment consideration.

    If you pay by yourself (parents, donors or simply hard work to get you there) you still have to meet the threshold before a surgeon will touch you.

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  69. Not entirely sure I understand your question here (may need later clarification) but with regards to diagnosis; when someone is prepared to change their physical (primary) SEX! characteristics straight up! Without needing any other "crutches" might it not be reasonable to deduce they are ABSOLUTELY! Serious about being/that they believe they ARE (or are absolutely supposed to be) that othe SEX! (not "gender").

    That they are ABSOLUTELY supposed to have a vagina (MTF).

    Where's the problem?

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  70. To clarify: I believe a pre-pubescent child should be allowed blockers as it would be reasonable to assume their motives aren't sexual/fetish based and they don't typically pose a threat to women as a physically developed male does.

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  71. First let me apologize to MKIA because this particular topic is not the topic of the thread and it is not polite to take things sideways.

    However, I think I should answer you. I take no issue with what you are proposing. To a transsexual it does not matter in what sequence the transformation of the body takes place.

    However, your proposal on diagnosis seems, with respect, a little naive. Essentially what you are saying is that the absolute assertion of a person that they are prepared to change their primary sex characteristics is sufficient to permit surgery to go ahead. Further the assertion that they are of one particular sex (physical evidence to the contrary, because being transsexual means that your physical sex does not match your innate gender, hence incongruence and need for surgery).

    The problem is that this would apply to just about every person who wants to have a surgery to align their body with their innate gender. In your world view there are men with vaginas. Under your proposed diagnosis" model how do you distinguish one from the other if a simple albeit absolute assertion you describe is sufficient.

    I disagree with this proposition because it essentially says that if you simply, but absolutely assert you are a woman and need surgery to align yourself, then you are. It smack to much of "I am a woman because I say so". That cannot possibly be what you want.

    I believe to achieve what you and in the final analysis every transsexual wants is to have diagnostic criteria developed that deal exclusively with transsexualism which allows for a recognition of the unique health care issues of transsexuals.

    If you do not introduce objective criteria then you are, unfortunately back to "I am a woman because I say so" nonsense. Once they are properly developed, I could not care less what sequence you do the surgical and hormonal alignment. It's secondary because it simply follows diagnosis.





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  72. Kathryn I have absolutely no concerns if a man wants to buy himself a Vagina. He is the one who will have to live with it. In fact I know several people who gamed the system got srs and yet remained men mentally in their approach to life and society. Please explain to me what is wrong with that. It is their body and their life. Should gatekeepers keep them safe from making a mistake? It doesn't work because they just find some other route to take.

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  73. I too apologise to MKIA.

    What it comes down to is accountability Kathryn.

    The principle behind this whole topic MKIA is writing about, the difference between a male and female perspective, why my method of diagnosis would be 100% successful, ALL OF IT!.... it's all tied into the essence of the original post.

    Women get no excuses in the world and that is from the day they are born! They are raised to learn and understand that their actions have consequences, whether that be by their parents or by life experience.

    Men on the other hand, come to understand that generally they can pass the buck, they can hold someone else accountable if something doesn't go how they WANT it to go if THEY screw up.

    The difference is due to the different circumstances related to being and living as one sex or the other.

    If a man has sex with, or rapes a woman and she falls pregnant, he can chose to walk away and continue his life as though nothing has happened (ethical or not, he CAN!!)

    The female however, no matter what! no matter how you WANT to look at it, she and her life suffer in one way or another, there is ALWAYS some down side for her and her life, it’s only how far serious the consequences are that varies and often it’s not even largely her fault (she didn’t ask to be raped for instance).

    So from the day they are born, women learn accountability where men do NOT.

    If SRS is the sole diagnosis criteria, if someone has NO recourse, should things NOT be how the person dreamed after SRS and they have to live with THEIR decision and be accountable NO MATTER WHAT, no excuses! then as far as I'm concerned they deserve all they get whether that be success or failure, they deserve to and will have earned EVERY right to call themselves female and a woman, one way or another they will truly KNOW! what it is to be both!

    and so, in fact what you said will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, they WILL! be as much a woman as any, other simply because they SAID SO!

    Take away a man’s scapegoats, his excuses, make him truly accountable for his actions and I guarantee he will think more carefully about what he says and does.

    My method FORCES people to be EXACTLY what they say they are.

    I'm NOT sorry if you or anyone else doesn't like it or doesn't agree.

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  74. "If SRS is the sole diagnosis criteria, if someone has NO recourse, should things NOT be how the person dreamed after SRS and they have to live with THEIR decision and be accountable NO MATTER WHAT, no excuses! then as far as I'm concerned they deserve all they get whether that be success or failure, they deserve to and will have earned EVERY right to call themselves female and a woman, one way or another they will truly KNOW! what it is to be both!"

    So, if this is what your position is, why do you call those that do exactly as you say, men? It's a bit like reverse engineering isn't it. The proof that you are a female and a woman is in having surgery and taking the consequences that flow from that.

    While I also agree that blockers in pre-pubescent children have a place without objective criteria for diagnosis, you are trifling with another persons life before they are capable of taking the step on their own.

    It is always easy to make sweeping pronouncements about the things you talk about but when you really get into the consequences of carrying out what you take a position on then you have to deal with details.

    Deena, this sideways conversation arose in connection with funding for SRS. Qualification and eligibility criteria for public or insurance funding must be based on medical need when it come to health care choices. It's not about the gatekeepers but about obtaining funding for SRS coverage.

    The element of personal responsibility for what you do is always present especially for women.

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  75. "So, if this is what your position is, why do you call those that do exactly as you say, men?"~KD

    They DON'T do what I have suggested, they tippy toe in and take cautious steps making sure all the while that their entitlements as men are maintained, and that they can still live the coumfy life they've always lived and not have to become accountable at any stage.

    Just like you with the wife and job and just like natasha with the wife the job and kids.

    I've said it before, a NEED is a NEED! transsexuals NEED SRS to survive, women NEED a vagaina to be women (no matter the cost)

    "It is always easy to make sweeping pronouncements about the things you talk about but when you really get into the consequences of carrying out what you take a position on then you have to deal with details."~KD

    OR!!!!

    "Take away a man’s scapegoats, his excuses, make him truly accountable for his actions and I guarantee he will think more carefully about what he says and does."~VB

    CASE CLOSED!!!

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  76. What the Bloody Hell!?!

    I leave here for three days on business and the moment I'm gone, the whole lot of you strip your clothes off, paint yourselves purple and dance around with torches setting fire to small animals and reenacting the Lord of the Flies?

    Well Stop it Already!

    Now then... everyone and I do mean EVRYONE! Lets put on our happy faces and see if we can untangle this gorgons knot you've created!

    First of all, I used the term Male Privilege because I meant exactly that... Male Privilege! Please do NOT put words I did not say into my mouth nor re-interpret what I said to mean something entirely different nor have the gall to question my quality of life based on my bringing up an elephant in the middle of the room topic! Now then, questions are ALWAYS welcome and if I am unclear or you don't get what I am saying, then I am more than happy to discuss it! And if I say something which you completely disagree with or even that sets your teeth on edge then lets talk about it! Lord only knows, while I do know a lot, I certainly do NOT know it all!

    However this time, I do know what I am talking about and it is very VERY clear to me that some are stumbling on two things about what I am saying! First of all. the word male in anyway being attached to them even if it is to describe a social issue beyond their doing or control, and also in trying to separate those having "privilege" as a social construct from those who are "privileged"...

    These may sound the same and would seem in the reading that they are no different... but they are two ENTIRELY different things and no, it does not make one residually male to discuss your having been given a privilege based on your presumed and now irrelevant sex at birth! Now everyone, put down your spears and let me explain that please! And because of the charged word "male," Do any of you mind if I try it clear it up with a less charged concept. One which also applies to everyone who has joined in here... but which is equally hard to see? This concept would be, White Privilege.

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  77. Being Born White in the Western World confers onto those who are white of skin certain privilege. Privilege which is not given to those who are not white and these privileges are so deeply interwoven into the cultural fabric that the ONLY way to see them as one given them, is to get out of your own shoes for a while and walk in the shoes of one not white... It doesn't matter if you are white, whether you are a three toothed Peckerwood with a failed Grade School education living in a run down trailer in Appalachia. You have the exact same white privilege as does an old money white person living on the upper east side of NY City.The former, while having the same white privilege is clearly far from a privileged person in just about every other way possible, while the latter is very much privileged in pretty much all ways as well as their having white privilege...

    For example, either of them can drive down any street at any time in any city, past any cop and never, NEVER will they have to deal with the question of suspicion being cast upon then with a "what are they doing here?" A white person in America, no matter how poor is never EVER going to have to put up with being followed round a store as a potential thief simply because of their skin color. Nor will they ever have the same experience as does a black person running down the street. The Black person is always going to get white people looking at them and even if it is just a fleeting thought... wondering what it is they did bad and what it is they are running from! A white person running down the street on the other hand is just going to be assumed to be getting a bit of exercise!

    These two examples are just a few of the thousands upon thousands of little and not so little things which make up the privilege which comes with being white... None of which have anything to do with the holders economic standing nor with how hard or easy life they lead would make one "Privileged or not"

    Perhaps one day, God willing, these things will fade from our midst and the color of ones skin will be just that... the color of you skin. but that time is not now and until then, being born white is going to come with white privilege wanted or not.

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  78. Now then. Male Privilege is exactly the same sort of thing... MP is simply society granting to ALL BORN MALES... a free pass on the thousands upon thousands of little things and not so little things which no female is ever going to get! His life is always going to be different than hers and he is going to learn about his world and it's limits or lack there of in ways which are as foreign to those born females as would be breathing water! It does not matter if one is poor as dirt or as wealthy as Romney! It does not matter if one was abused as a child vs one who lead the children's book picture perfect life... It does not matter if one is educated or dumb as a bag of hammers... it does not matter if one was the chosen child or the red headed step child! If they are perceived as male, from birth onwards, they are given carte blanc the privilege which goes with male!

    It is not a privilege which was asked for nor was it something which could have been rejected as not fitting... It was simply there like the sun on your face

    That is unless one has the unfortunate luck to be born transsexual! Then it becomes a double edged sword... the same freedom that comes with the MP allowed us to explore our worlds and find ways to survive the unsurviable. The lack of constraint upon our ego lets us have the strength to face a world which said we were completely and utterly wrong. and then let us do something about it! Our MP often let us take jobs which paid much better than any sort of "woman's work!" And even if we did find ourselves doing " woman's work." It still paid us better and offered faster advancement than it did to any other woman!

    But on the other hand... when the physical part of transition is over and done with... The residual bits of that same privilege become as unwanted and as unbecoming as toilet paper stuck to your shoe! And you know, that might be the perfect analogy, because it is about as easy to not know you have bits of MP sticking out until like the toilet paper, someone either points it out to you or you look down and with utter embarrassment you see it in all it's glory! Problem is it's not just one little thing and as easily corrected as taking the paper from your shoe, because it is a thousand bits of paper! It is in everything you do, from the space you take up in the room to how you eat to how you even walk ties back to these things... The way you relate to others of both sexes, the way you ask for things, the way you see yourself in relation to others... all shaped from your mothers knee onwards to be different for boys and girls...

    It doesn't matter if you had like me to learn how to do many of these things simply to survive... just the act of making them accessible enough to function makes them perniciously hard to get rid of!

    Did that make sense?
    MKIA

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  79. Anon September 19, 2012 3:23 PM,
    No, it is still Male Privilege... just rater more egregious and harder on the eyes and ears than normal as we are being told by the person exercising their penultimate privilege that they are... ahem women? Uhhh hint there sweetie... If you gotta say it... you ain't!

    Fionnuala,
    I wanted to applaud your putting self advancement behind the good of your children. That was something which only a woman would do.

    Deena,
    I once knew a woman of history who had the most delightful saying... "You can graft a twat onto a watermelon but it doesn't make it a woman!" Sadly the Skin Transvestites never EVER figure that out until long after the shouting is done. Then and only then do they realize they are now and forever more men in dresses... I really do feel for them... but it's their bed, they made it and they are the once who have to lay in it so wouldn't it be nice if just once we could get them to shut the fuck up about how they and we are the same?

    Kathryn Dumke,
    I'm afraid you are still receiving the fruits of your entrance into the our lives...and you may be for some time to come. That said I have come to think you are actually getting "it" even if the doing was way more than a day late and a dollar short. Such as it's a shame that what you wrote on Natasha's page vis-a vie a woman and her sex was taken down as it was pretty much as spot on as anything I have read in a while...

    Natasha/Troop/Virgini'Tonic MissE Naught... Honey...You have one hell of a tough row to how and I do not envy you in the least... But that said I am NOT your enemy... You do that all on your own quite nicely... and as one who has traveled many a road you have only dreamed about... drop the fucking "trans" already! Spend just an hour on line popping round the web and if you can unstopper your mind... you will quickly come to see that "Trans" has come to mean one who is only playing at being the other sex... You had surgery... That bridge is burnt! So you really have only two options left if you don't want to be an MtFtM. You can hold onto being that "trans" and be equated as being a man in a dress for the rest of your life... or you can let go of that bit of utter nonsense and the Male Privilege which let you think you could have it all, and learn what it means to actually be female in this life... your choice.

    #75
    Gentlemen and Lady? Really? Tacky Hon. Tacky!

    To All
    When talking about careers and jobs which we got into because of our birth sex, it is specious of any of us to make light of the MP That got us there! Yes women do do most things that men do these days but that does not chance one thing about our having gotten into those jobs "pre" far easier, far faster and to have advanced faster than any woman would have...


    VB
    Yes women do talk about these things and they do it rather frequently... and the older I have gotten the more they talk about it... However as MP is such an oppressive and all present factor in all women's lives it usually is discussed in snips, either our kvetching about something a man did or that we were unable to do because of a man...or how we were screwed over by a man... and in all that the privilege that he gets because he is a man is very present!

    That's all...
    MKIA

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  80. That is unless one has the unfortunate luck to be born transsexual! Then it becomes a double edged sword... the same freedom that comes with the MP allowed us to explore our worlds and find ways to survive the unsurviable. The lack of constraint upon our ego lets us have the strength to face a world which said we were completely and utterly wrong. and then let us do something about it! Our MP often let us take jobs which paid much better than any sort of "woman's work!" And even if we did find ourselves doing " woman's work." It still paid us better and offered faster advancement than it did to any other woman!~MKIA.

    I love ya MIKA but if this whole post is your stance and YOUR opinion, then please don't use "US" you don't know me and you certainly DON'T know a damn thing about my life! We are nothing alike, and I WAS born accurately classified by the word you use here "Transsexual".

    Did that make sense?~MKIA

    To me? The principle you are talking about? Yes.

    As you have worded and written it? Not a fucking word!

    Peace to you.

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  81. That privilege is a pernicious weed always bears repetition. Dig it out, burn it down, cut it through, move away from it, whatever ; one always needs to have a weather eye out for it's reappearance.
    That's why a post like this is so valuable. The point about 'trans woman' is perfectly valid in that it does retain a certain special snowflake kind of privilege. Of course 'woman of history' does exactly the same thing, but, no matter, the point is well made.
    But the major point that comes from the post and is so clear in many of the comments here is the way that privilege continues by not being able to let go of a privileged position. Because that's so clearly what's behind the urge to self-categorise as a true, classic TS. The ones who deserve papers, unlike those messed up TG's. The ones who are real women as opposed to full time hormone takers who are only playing dress up. The ones who Harry Benjamin would have labelled the only real transsexuals, except that he didn't. The ones who medical professionals should treat as distinct, except that they don't. The intense ones, as in Abby VB's post on her last blog where she mused on being the most intense TS ever since even her mentor had - shock, horror - actually had sex before GRS.
    It's always good to learn the lessons of privilege by looking at examples, and this post and the comments have provided a great wealth of such. Thank you, MKIA, for such a salutary lesson for us all.

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  82. "Sophia" You are precisely who we are speaking about, when we make reference to those who feel so entitled that they would re-define womanhood to include the likes of you.

    Yes "sophia I AM disparaging YOU, as you so well deserve to be treated in kind.

    You see here is the "thang". In the UK people have become accustomed to stopping for red lights. Now, just because there are oddballs running loose that do not like stopping for red lights because well....they are "special" or in plain ol cockney, bloody well DAFT, does not mean that society shoud accomodate them.

    Or should they? I mean why not give you papers making you legally female whilst you are simply a chemically castrated male? Why that makes as much sense as giving you a 'special' tag for your auto so you might run red lights with impunty.

    Oh wait!!!! I forgot!!!! You are TRANS*, right? Oh well then of course. You are soooo special. NOT!

    Give me a BLOODY BREAK!

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  83. mentor?....

    Now I'm confused. not a single one of the people I consider my "mentors" has had SRS sophie, and yes, most of the HAVE had sex.

    Am I the only one who reads this post as essentially the exact same TG doctrine so widely available on the net?

    IE: that you were born and raised male and untill you get rid of all that you can NEVER be rid of (your male past and how it shaped you and your outlook), you will never be just a normal female, a normal woman?

    you were a man! and until you don't have a male past you will be a man forever, "trans" forever! TG forever!!!!

    you need to change your "gender", to trans-gender, change the way you THINK and act, the way you walk, be the oposite of what you were born, because there's no possible way you could have been BORN thinking like a female, there's no possible way female could be innate to you, what comes naturally!

    but most of all! you were "Privileged" over women/females, you were treated better than them, you should be ASHAMED! you should feel GUILTY about how "privilaged" you and your life are/were, even though those other women NEVER faced the hell you have and they WILL know the joys of motherhood and have known the joys of the formative years you so badly needed and that much of your life's success is dependant on


    It's interesting how many late transitioners and non-ops seem to have come out in support of this post.

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  84. "Am I the only one who reads this post as essentially the exact same TG doctrine so widely available on the net?"

    It would appear so.

    But who cares? You're entitled to your opinion. Although you have expressed the same opinion over and over, over the course of your 54 comments to this post. Which seems a little excessive, but I digress.

    Personally, when I think of "TG doctrine," if such a doctrine truly exists, what comes to mind for me is the exact opposite of what's been expressed her; IOW, that there are no set "conditions," if you will, which one needs to meet to be a normal female or normal woman. That you're a normal woman if you say you are; no other steps need be taken. I offer that without any editorializing.

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  85. @anonymous. Always good to get the male point of view. BTW 'daft' is used mainly by northerners, 'ol' is a US contraction that never caught on in the UK and , please, whoever speaks cockney nowadays ?
    @Abby Sorry, thought Anne, who you seemed to be talking about, was somewhat mentorish to you.

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  86. Sophie, talking about where? what hallucinogenics are you on exactly?

    You know what Fionnuala, you're right! That is ecessive, I'm an idiot huh! I coulda stopped this early on but my stubborn determination to try an show an alternative to a life of guilt and shame overcame me.

    But that's ok, you all are welcome to live like that if that is what you desire for yourselves, you don't need to pay any attention to my opinions, there couldn't possibly be anything of value in what someone as young and stupid and in experienced as I am, has to say.

    I'll end with this:

    For a young person who would obviously know nothing, i'm post-op, in my twenties and I have NO commitments to anyone but myself I may be stupid and easier to dismiss and shout down, but I'll have a life none of you "experts" with you wealth of experience as women, could ever dream of having.

    Have a great life! I know I'm gonna.

    Focker out!

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  87. Finally VB! My God that took long enough! At least now I think I get what is troubling you about my words, and if that is the case, then no... you do NOT "get" the content of this post. Not in the least!

    The primary intent was to point out how in the TG world, the privilege which comes with being born male and being acculturated to be dominate in all things, is in fact the driving force behind those such as Sophie not having the least problem with something so amazingly arrogant, so hubristic and so completely masculine in every possible way! Such as their redefining the female of the species to exclude ALL factors which might really be relevant to ones actually being female besides the garb and the tits, which ironically, after hormones, includes them!

    That said, there is a second thought here... and one which probably should have been part of a second post or best yet held for private conversation away from the TG interjections. That being that even with sisters... and I am referring ONLY to those born with a sexually dymorphic body/mind, the social conditioning that came first from our parents then from the world at large doing their utmost to make men of us... It leaves a mark! And that mark can and will show at the oddest times on ones sleeve rather much as the existence of donor tissue did prior to SRS simply because it existed! And so, just as the former had to be undone, the latter must also be excised.

    So no dear, like you, I was not a man before... even if my body technically was, but that said, whilst I was stretched across that horrible divide, I still lived and breathed and learned, much of which was flavored to varying degrees by the masculine mold I was forced into even single day! After SRS, none of those things suddenly unlearned themselves! I had to actively unlearn them, or rather I should say, I had to actively relearn them in their feminine form lest I appear odd and ungainly as I went about my life as a female.

    That M'Dear is not me being a man playing at girl, not a TG nor something else... it is but a variation forced by rather unfortunate circumstances onto me as I went about belatedly doing the same thing that every female undergoes as she learns how to function in her world! The rules to Girl World are harsh and they are damned unforgiving! Transgressions of them are met with being one being shunned if not out right ostracized! There is little room in girl world for one being "different" beyond a very limited range, and yes, the older you are when you dropped into the deep end of the pool as it is assumed you had years upon years to learn your role, the less room there is for one to make those mistakes... And even you at this tender age, you WILL make mistakes!

    Watch a group of tweenage or teen age girls and look at the social regulation being learned by the group! The conditioning they are undergoing for their role as adult females is their primary activity 24/7! Something which neither you nor I got but which must still be learned... Something which is made doubly difficult if one cannot recognize where the former male privilege taught/conditioned you differently!

    Are we on the same page yet?
    MKIA

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  88. Sophie,
    For one who supposedly makes their living by the word, it seems ironic that you cannot seem to make the distinction between front loading a concept so that it becomes the negation of the word so modified. Such as the contraction, "trans-woman." From that of one who is acknowledging a past when it needs to be acknowledged as is the case with a "Woman of History."

    If you parse it down, the former as a negation must always mean a male and the latter is female. But then again, you are equally dismissive of all females as our being unimportant bits of fluff to do with as you will. So perhaps I should simply thank you for the unintended compliment!

    MKIA

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  89. No Miz knows some stuff, we are most certainly NOT!.

    I maintained from the very start that I understood in concept EXACTLY what you were getting at and that my bone of contention was in the callous/inaccurate way you worded your post.

    We are NOT on the same page, because I would NEVER write a post that had the potential to take what little hope of a normal life a young TS born girl might be clinging to from her, instil a deeper sense of guilt and shame in her than the already monumental levels most experience, and send her to suck the shotgun as I myself have LITTERALY considered multiple times, and I most certainly would NOT do it for the purposes of late transitioning men who are to chicken-shit to be accountable for their own actions and who pompously and callously screw with the lives of those same EXTREMELY! UNDER-"privileged" girls.

    And I wouldn't insult and disrespect a friend’s personal struggle to try and make that point (if that is in fact what you've done here and that was accordingly the implied intent of your inactions).

    That said; you’re my friend, I hope you’re well and I hope to chat with you soon and hear about your latest adventure.

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  90. Good to know that a self describing black woman, or disabled woman, or autistic woman, or american woman etc etc are negating their womanhood, one learns something new every day. Trans, for me, simply acknowledges either being near or in transition or a history, but undoubtedly words mean what you want them to mean. And it's not hyphenated.
    If we're discussing grammar, you seem to have some problems in stating exactly what I'm doing that so embodies arrogance etc. Also when I'm tempted, say, to try and define something like 'woman' I tend to talk about the neurological dimorphism and its cognitive correlates, rather than clothes, tits or surgeries which relate only to performative gender. Because after all, anyone can fake the meaningfulness of those things. Of course if they do that, the girls world they live in must be a harsh and unforgiving place indeed. Sad.
    A last thing. I'm pretty much a dyke, remember, and spend 90% of my time with other women. I certainly don't treat them like fluff and indeed spend a fair amount of time talking with them about intersecting privileges. Including the cis privilege that you grovel in places like gender trender to have recognised for yourself and friends, and the hell with anyone else.
    Done.



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  91. You're a dyke!? Well whadda ya know! Get outta town! So is every man I ever dated!

    I'm sorry! Why didn't you say something sooner! Now I feel all bad for the mean things I said and I'm really really glad to know that there is someone out there who is working "hard" at making real women out of those poor darn confused lesbians! I mean it's common knowledge isn't it that if they were to just get fucked real good just once by the right man. They will be cured of that carpet munching nonsense and they will be hooked on the dick as God intended?

    I'm not getting this wrong am I? You do have a penis and testicles right? The very same ones you sported with no problem as a straight male for six decades before you felled by that unfortunate and untimely liver biopsy? The one that unwilling and unwittingly turned you into a "trans woman?"

    Must be a scary world out there for the men folk! What with random bee stings, biopsys and hair treatments lurking in the wings just waiting to turn all these unsuspecting ordinary men folk into card carrying lesbians!

    Well good luck with that and congrats on your breaking through that darn cotton ceiling!

    MKIA

    oh btw... your examples are a weak and specious argument. In none of those is there the concept of "other than" which comes with trans!

    Sorry! Thanks for playing and better luck next time!

    MKIA

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  92. VB... I really am sorry for the lack of connection, the last thing I would want in this world is to do any of what you have implied, but just to be sure I re read the entire post, twice, with comments, just now and unless I am really missing something, which is quite possible, there isn't mention one of transsexual in there at all! The entire post was about the TG/trans and their deep and abiding love of the privilege that came with their being male.

    It was in the comments later as they slowly veered off that subject into other relms in which I said that we too might have to struggle with some of the unwanted side effects of having been given or in your case tried to be given Male Privilege... The intent again is to do the exact opposite of what you have walked away from this with!

    As for inactions... You know what I do to keep body and soul together and for the latter part of the week sleep was quickly becoming "optional!" The blog, well she just had to take care of herself!

    I would suggest we might want to take this off line as any real clarity as to what was intended vs what was read is going to keep being derailed.

    MIKA

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  93. Oh well, a couple of corrections. I have no idea what you're talking about with this idea of a biopsy. I have a severely damaged liver which, with my prescribed meds, adds up to a part natural form of HRT.
    Was talking to a butch friend recently about being unsure whether part of my butch identity comes from the fact that in sex I avoid any genital stimulation at all, but that for trans reasons. And tend to go more for queer bi women. Difficult issues indeed.
    And if trans 'has' to mean that, since you're the judge and the jury, I'll leave you to the privilege which drips from your every word.Toodle pip.

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  94. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  95. YO! ToodlePip. You wants some reeeal privilege? How 'bout dis? I cum ova to yo houss and give you some reeeeeal dyke luvin'. None of dat pussy lickin' stuff. Ima talkin' the real thing here. Whadsa ya sa bitchboy? And yo liva not feelin' so hot. I dun mind. I kind like you little weasly sicko types. Yo'all kno how to howl reeeal good like. so, whaada yu say? y'all wanna play ;-)

    A real BBB

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  96. @Sophie

    What a total and complete freaking fraud you are.

    http://sophias-choices.blogspot.com/2009_07_01_archive.html

    You described yourself in Me 101 as a heterosexual male and then somehow cirrhosis of the liver made you suddenly walk the streets "feeling" different and I quote you here.

    "So there I was, still on a huge high a month or two later, as I woke up one morning with the strong feeling that something was missing. When I hit the streets, everything changed in the way I seemed to see and feel people around me. I was only too clearly NOT in Kansas. In the following weeks and months, I’d come to view it as essentially a process of acclimatising to being female, but at that time, after about a day I could work out that if I had to put a name on this thing that I'd lost, that name was gender."

    Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit!!!! Now we have a "My Liver made me Trans" dipshit in here talking about male privilege and his fantasies about women allowing him to be their "dyke" girlfriend.

    There is pathetic, delusional, A.E. Brain., and then there is you Sophie. In your pathetic life you actually did choose to be "trans and then a dyke with a dick hoping you could get your ugly ass laid.

    Just to make things clear dipshit the liver synthesizes and secretes at least four important hormones:

    Insulin-like Growth Factor-1 (IGF-1)
    Angiotensinogen
    Thrombopoietin
    Hepcidin

    None of these could make you suddenly "feel" female but then it is a good story for a "dyke with a dick".

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  97. Tell me Sophie, what does it feel like to feel female???

    Anybody?

    I am especially interested in hearing how it feels to have premenstrual cramps.

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  98. Anonymous #76... I'll answer!

    I have no idea how it feels to have menstrual cramps. Or to be pregnant. None whatsoever!

    I'm afraid the group of women here at MKIA's blog can't help you.

    May I suggest that you go ask your question here on this board. The females there might be some help to you.

    Then again, they might not...

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  99. Is something constructive suppose to come out of this catfight?
    Hell half the cats arn't real cats.

    shakes her head, walks away.

    NYF

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  100. NYF you answered your own question.

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  101. Deena
    It's always good to ask a question you already know the answer to.

    Looking at the comments here one wonders what the Tee-Gee's own mothers would think of them spouting this shit ,let alone what their wives and daughters might think if they heard the crap these dudes are spouting.

    NYF

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